2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[M840TR]

Canada will be tricky, lots of slow corners.

"In Baku, low-speed wasn't a problem. It was only [in Spain]."

Maybe it was a balance/setup problem? Could they have answers for Canada?

Indeed. They apparently solved it by Monaco but it's still a weakness as they would've been P11 if not for Leclerc and Grosjean getting in trouble during quali.
I'm not sure it'll be completely addressed by Canada or even this season since it's apparently mechanical in nature requiring significant changes to the car's philosophy like suspension geometry, wheel hub design etc. For instance, Mercedes on resources double that of Mclaren took around 2 years to solve their slow-speed corner performance. Of course the analogy doesn't apply word for word but it gives us an idea of the seemingly insurmountable task that lies ahead. Even if they manage to circumvent the tyre warm-up problems it would probably still pale in comparison to the likes of W10, the brilliant front suspension of which thrusts both wheels downwards mid-corner supposedly via steering arm movement, pushing significantly more tyre surface into the tarmac and consequently raising grip from the slicks' higher temperature & it's more even distribution and increased employable surface area.
There are probably even further obscure complexities throughout the car aiding this design further exaggerating the relative performance deficit, however since Brackley has now expanded everyone's horizon's of limitations & possibilities others might mimic aspects of design relatively expeditiously given it dovetails into concurrent philosophies and worth overall gain.

[Ground Effect]

Canada will be tricky, lots of slow corners.

"In Baku, low-speed wasn't a problem. It was only [in Spain]."

Maybe it was a balance/setup problem? Could they have answers for Canada?

Indeed. They apparently solved it by Monaco but it's still a weakness as they would've been P11 if not for Leclerc and Grosjean getting in trouble during quali.
I'm not sure it'll be completely addressed by Canada or even this season since it's apparently mechanical in nature requiring significant changes to the car's philosophy like suspension geometry, wheel hub design etc. For instance, Mercedes on resources double that of Mclaren took around 2 years to solve their slow-speed corner performance. Of course the analogy doesn't apply word for word but it gives us an idea of the seemingly insurmountable task that lies ahead. Even if they manage to circumvent the tyre warm-up problems it would probably still pale in comparison to the likes of W10, the brilliant front suspension of which thrusts both wheels downwards mid-corner supposedly via steering arm movement, pushing significantly more tyre surface into the tarmac and consequently raising grip from the slicks' higher temperature & it's more even distribution and increased employable surface area.
There are probably even further obscure complexities throughout the car aiding this design further exaggerating the relative performance deficit, however since Brackley has now expanded everyone's horizon's of limitations & possibilities others might mimic aspects of design relatively expeditiously given it dovetails into concurrent philosophies and worth overall gain.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the issues we’re having with low speed corners is relatively new to the team? Was it there in 2017-18? I’m not going further back because of the new aero rules of 2017. I know there’s a lot of stuff flying around on forums these days with little or no way to verify. But I read somewhere that during the post Spanish Grand Prix tests, McLaren trialled a new suspension. The poster actually said new suspension and floor, I can’t remember which suspension he claimed, front or rear. Like I said, such info can’t be relied upon. The only reason why I wondered if it’s true is that Seidl said after one of the test days that they tried new parts that could be used for future races.

[mwillems]

"In Baku, low-speed wasn't a problem. It was only [in Spain]."

Maybe it was a balance/setup problem? Could they have answers for Canada?

Indeed. They apparently solved it by Monaco but it's still a weakness as they would've been P11 if not for Leclerc and Grosjean getting in trouble during quali.
I'm not sure it'll be completely addressed by Canada or even this season since it's apparently mechanical in nature requiring significant changes to the car's philosophy like suspension geometry, wheel hub design etc. For instance, Mercedes on resources double that of Mclaren took around 2 years to solve their slow-speed corner performance. Of course the analogy doesn't apply word for word but it gives us an idea of the seemingly insurmountable task that lies ahead. Even if they manage to circumvent the tyre warm-up problems it would probably still pale in comparison to the likes of W10, the brilliant front suspension of which thrusts both wheels downwards mid-corner supposedly via steering arm movement, pushing significantly more tyre surface into the tarmac and consequently raising grip from the slicks' higher temperature & it's more even distribution and increased employable surface area.
There are probably even further obscure complexities throughout the car aiding this design further exaggerating the relative performance deficit, however since Brackley has now expanded everyone's horizon's of limitations & possibilities others might mimic aspects of design relatively expeditiously given it dovetails into concurrent philosophies and worth overall gain.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the issues we’re having with low speed corners is relatively new to the team? Was it there in 2017-18? I’m not going further back because of the new aero rules of 2017. I know there’s a lot of stuff flying around on forums these days with little or no way to verify. But I read somewhere that during the post Spanish Grand Prix tests, McLaren trialled a new suspension. The poster actually said new suspension and floor, I can’t remember which suspension he claimed, front or rear. Like I said, such info can’t be relied upon. The only reason why I wondered if it’s true is that Seidl said after one of the test days that they tried new parts that could be used for future races.

I think there was talk of new front suspension. There was a raised area on front of the cockpit in one day of the post race Spanish testing that some thought might be a new S Duct, but that on closer inspection folks thought was something to do with a new raised/larger heave damper. I don't think there was anything more than opinion here though, I don't recall there being anything to substantiate that.

[Jackles-UK]

Canada will be tricky, lots of slow corners.

Canada is a bit like Baku - basically just a series of straights intersected with hairpins/chicanes and they had their best team performance of the year there.

It’s much more dependent on brakes, traction and straight line speed than slow speed corner performance. The MCL34 has generally had good top speed figures and looked excellent on the brakes so I expect a strong weekend.

[M840TR]

"In Baku, low-speed wasn't a problem. It was only [in Spain]."

Maybe it was a balance/setup problem? Could they have answers for Canada?

Indeed. They apparently solved it by Monaco but it's still a weakness as they would've been P11 if not for Leclerc and Grosjean getting in trouble during quali.
I'm not sure it'll be completely addressed by Canada or even this season since it's apparently mechanical in nature requiring significant changes to the car's philosophy like suspension geometry, wheel hub design etc. For instance, Mercedes on resources double that of Mclaren took around 2 years to solve their slow-speed corner performance. Of course the analogy doesn't apply word for word but it gives us an idea of the seemingly insurmountable task that lies ahead. Even if they manage to circumvent the tyre warm-up problems it would probably still pale in comparison to the likes of W10, the brilliant front suspension of which thrusts both wheels downwards mid-corner supposedly via steering arm movement, pushing significantly more tyre surface into the tarmac and consequently raising grip from the slicks' higher temperature & it's more even distribution and increased employable surface area.
There are probably even further obscure complexities throughout the car aiding this design further exaggerating the relative performance deficit, however since Brackley has now expanded everyone's horizon's of limitations & possibilities others might mimic aspects of design relatively expeditiously given it dovetails into concurrent philosophies and worth overall gain.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the issues we’re having with low speed corners is relatively new to the team? Was it there in 2017-18? I’m not going further back because of the new aero rules of 2017. I know there’s a lot of stuff flying around on forums these days with little or no way to verify. But I read somewhere that during the post Spanish Grand Prix tests, McLaren trialled a new suspension. The poster actually said new suspension and floor, I can’t remember which suspension he claimed, front or rear. Like I said, such info can’t be relied upon. The only reason why I wondered if it’s true is that Seidl said after one of the test days that they tried new parts that could be used for future races.

The Mcl32 was quite bad in low-speed corners compared to Merc, inferred from an onboard comparison video in Canada. In Bahrain though it seemed the Mcl33 was better than Mcl34 on such corners but still significantly lacking to pole. So it's really always been an issue, even if seemingly exacerbated this year. The new front suspension idea was prompted by me in the car thread as others suggested the protrusion ahead of the 360 camera was an S-duct but it appeared more an enlarged heave damper. The revised floor was present since Friday. Not sure it worked or carried on, though covering such wide deficit probably requires a relatively major change as I mentioned earlier.

[godlameroso]

Canada will be tricky, lots of slow corners.

Canada is a bit like Baku - basically just a series of straights intersected with hairpins/chicanes and they had their best team performance of the year there.

It’s much more dependent on brakes, traction and straight line speed than slow speed corner performance. The MCL34 has generally had good top speed figures and looked excellent on the brakes so I expect a strong weekend.

Drive it in a sim or something, understeer going into each corner is exacerbated by the fact there aren't many high speed corners to keep heat in the tires and plenty of straights. Turn 2 is very low speed as is the hairpin, both critical corners for lap time. To get fastest time through the chicanes takes a good front end otherwise you are forced to break earlier in order to get the nose setup for the best line. With a good front end you can brake later and still get the nose of the car set up for the chicane.

I think the gap will be roughly the same as in Monaco, save for any setup or car improvements they put on the car since.

[M840TR]

Canada will be tricky, lots of slow corners.

Canada is a bit like Baku - basically just a series of straights intersected with hairpins/chicanes and they had their best team performance of the year there.

It’s much more dependent on brakes, traction and straight line speed than slow speed corner performance. The MCL34 has generally had good top speed figures and looked excellent on the brakes so I expect a strong weekend.

Drive it in a sim or something, understeer going into each corner is exacerbated by the fact there aren't many high speed corners to keep heat in the tires and plenty of straights. Turn 2 is very low speed as is the hairpin, both critical corners for lap time. To get fastest time through the chicanes takes a good front end otherwise you are forced to break earlier in order to get the nose setup for the best line. With a good front end you can brake later and still get the nose of the car set up for the chicane.

I think the gap will be roughly the same as in Monaco, save for any setup or car improvements they put on the car since.

They’ll have more straights to recover lost time.

[Ground Effect]

There’s been a lot of stories recently surrounding the Renault engine, basically more power, qualifying mode etc. These developments include McLaren, right? Also, wanted to find out, does Renault determine how much power McLaren can use or have access to, what modes to run? I’m just wondering, because Cyril has talked about more power by Paul Ricard, have the works team been running more conservative than McLaren?

[SmallSoldier]

The MCL34 struggles in low speed corners because of lack of downforce, but not necessarily because the additional downforce will help them during the turns, it’s because the additional downforce would help them maintain or generate more heat in the tires... Which is the real problem for the team at the moment.

Adding downforce would be “relatively” easy... The problem is the drag penalty that will come with it will make the car even less competitive.

In Bahrain, the team had very good performance because the track isn’t front limited (therefore, lack of front tire performance wasn’t key to overall lap time) and the weather was hot enough to help them energize the tires and get them “in the window”.

I don’t think that the team will have issues in Canada and that they are finding ways to generate more energy in the tires without adding additional drag... In Canada, the speed in the straights have a larger overall effect in lap time than the speed in the corners.

Renault has to provide Mclaren with the same maps/power... All manufacturers have to make it available to their customers.


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[godlameroso]

Straight line speed isn't that important to be honest. It's carrying speed through the turns. And front end downforce helps to get the front end pointed, especially at the speeds they're taken at. You typically can run loose in the rear around here because there aren't any long high speed corners. Low speed traction and a good front end is king.

The chicane before the hairpin is the fastest corner on the track.

[PhillipM]

I don't think they'll suffer much with the front end here simply because the massive braking events before the slow corners put so much energy into the front tyres anyway, the car has had decent traction so far too.

[diffuser]

There’s been a lot of stories recently surrounding the Renault engine, basically more power, qualifying mode etc. These developments include McLaren, right? Also, wanted to find out, does Renault determine how much power McLaren can use or have access to, what modes to run? I’m just wondering, because Cyril has talked about more power by Paul Ricard, have the works team been running more conservative than McLaren?

They added a rule a couple years ago. You can't run a engine mode unless everyone using the manufacture's PU, has it available.

[Ground Effect]

There’s been a lot of stories recently surrounding the Renault engine, basically more power, qualifying mode etc. These developments include McLaren, right? Also, wanted to find out, does Renault determine how much power McLaren can use or have access to, what modes to run? I’m just wondering, because Cyril has talked about more power by Paul Ricard, have the works team been running more conservative than McLaren?

They added a rule a couple years ago. You can't run a engine mode unless everyone using the manufacture's PU, has it available.

Yeah, I get that. But what I mean is, for example, Renault were running detuned for a couple of races due reliability. Is McLaren obligated to do the same, or can they say, we’ll take our chances and run full power? Do they have that liberty, or would Renault insist they follow their recommendations?

[diffuser]

There’s been a lot of stories recently surrounding the Renault engine, basically more power, qualifying mode etc. These developments include McLaren, right? Also, wanted to find out, does Renault determine how much power McLaren can use or have access to, what modes to run? I’m just wondering, because Cyril has talked about more power by Paul Ricard, have the works team been running more conservative than McLaren?

They added a rule a couple years ago. You can't run a engine mode unless everyone using the manufacture's PU, has it available.

Yeah, I get that. But what I mean is, for example, Renault were running detuned for a couple of races due reliability. Is McLaren obligated to do the same, or can they say, we’ll take our chances and run full power? Do they have that liberty, or would Renault insist they follow their recommendations?

That article that Motorsport interviewed Cyril a couple of days ago. Cyril said unless McLaren use it first.

[RonDennis]

There’s been a lot of stories recently surrounding the Renault engine, basically more power, qualifying mode etc. These developments include McLaren, right? Also, wanted to find out, does Renault determine how much power McLaren can use or have access to, what modes to run? I’m just wondering, because Cyril has talked about more power by Paul Ricard, have the works team been running more conservative than McLaren?

They added a rule a couple years ago. You can't run a engine mode unless everyone using the manufacture's PU, has it available.

Yeah, I get that. But what I mean is, for example, Renault were running detuned for a couple of races due reliability. Is McLaren obligated to do the same, or can they say, we’ll take our chances and run full power? Do they have that liberty, or would Renault insist they follow their recommendations?

Renault introduces everything new at once. So two new parts: one for McLaren, one for Renault.

On: Monaco was one of the worst tracks on the agenda according to McLaren, so we should expect better pace at Canada. I wouldn't use Spain as a baseline, because they have made some mistakes with the setup of the car.