Ban automakers

[dans79]

I understand where you're coming from but the roots of F1 go back to before Ferrari was a gleam in Enzo's eye.

yep, and it was never "cheap", "equal", or "exciting" to casual fans.

[Jolle]

I understand where you're coming from but the roots of F1 go back to before Ferrari was a gleam in Enzo's eye.

yep, and it was never "cheap", "equal", or "exciting" to casual fans.

History isn’t a good argument I think , Grand Prix racing started with car manufacturers going for the local prizes for their countries. The real rise of the independent racing companies was only late fifties and sixties, possible because you could buy a Repco or Climax engine and later a Ford Cosworth.

Good chance if Lotus kept the DFV all for themselves, we wouldn’t have McLaren, Williams or Tyrrell. Since Ford ordered the DFV, nobody became champion with a non car manufacturers badge.

[dans79]

The real rise of the independent racing companies was only late fifties and sixties, possible because you could buy a Repco or Climax engine and later a Ford Cosworth.

Even then it wasn't good. Take Monza for example since its been around for that long.

1958:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 7 cars finished the race, and only 3 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 24.2s.

1963:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 12 cars finished the race, and only 2 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 95.0s.

1968:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 6 cars finished the race, and only 3 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 88.4s.

1973:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 16 cars finished the race, and only 6 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 0.8s.

1978:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 15 cars finished the race, and only 11 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 1.48s.

1983:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 13 cars finished the race, and only 8 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 10.212s.


When you go back and look at individual races, you will see that for the most part they are almost always a driver or a team dominating the others.


Today Automakers aren't the problem, it's the FIA and the fans.

[Jolle]

The real rise of the independent racing companies was only late fifties and sixties, possible because you could buy a Repco or Climax engine and later a Ford Cosworth.

Even then it wasn't good. Take Monza for example since its been around for that long.

1958:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 7 cars finished the race, and only 3 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 24.2s.

1963:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 12 cars finished the race, and only 2 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 95.0s.

1968:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 6 cars finished the race, and only 3 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 88.4s.

1973:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 16 cars finished the race, and only 6 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 0.8s.

1978:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 15 cars finished the race, and only 11 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 1.48s.

1983:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Italian_Grand_Prix
Only 13 cars finished the race, and only 8 on the lead lap. Winning margin was 10.212s.


When you go back and look at individual races, you will see that for the most part they are almost always a driver or a team dominating the others.


Today Automakers aren't the problem, it's the FIA and the fans.

There is also an argument that that’s sport, one is better then another at something and wins. When Bolt dominated the 100m for over a decade nobody called running unfair or said that Jamaica should be banned. If you want a good show, you penalize winning, like they do in the NBA.

[dans79]

If you want a good show, you penalize winning, like they do in the NBA.

Personally, I don't care about the show, I care about the sport and the technology.

[Jolle]

If you want a good show, you penalize winning, like they do in the NBA.

Personally, I don't care about the show, I care about the sport and the technology.

Same here.

[Zynerji]

If you want a good show, you penalize winning, like they do in the NBA.

Personally, I don't care about the show, I care about the sport and the technology.

Same here.

I definitely watch for the Man-vs-Nature aspect more than the Man-vs-Man aspect, and that means the tech is way more interesting than anything else for me.

[strad]

yep, and it was never "cheap", "equal", or "exciting" to casual fans.

Not exciting to casual fans?? Do I need to post pictures of the thousands that lined the roads for those early City to city races and the early races like the French GP?

[roon]

Even then it wasn't good.

That would be a comment upon the qualities of the race? My intent in the OP was perhaps too vague. Don't mean to address driver spectacle. More about the technical side--vehicle design.

Currently the hybrid tech is artificially imposed and arguably is not the most efficient way, both in cost and power/weight ratio, to make an F1 car quicker.

It's hard to see how they're weakening the sport when they're getting record lap times most weekends. I agree that the extreme wealth of the manufacturers creates an imbalance across the field, but evidence is it's exactly that wealth that allows them to pursue an extremely fast single lap time.

Free up the regs and cheaper cars might be fielded that can produce similar laptimes. Low budget + room to experiment might yield victory over high budget + established design.

[dans79]

yep, and it was never "cheap", "equal", or "exciting" to casual fans.

Not exciting to casual fans?? Do I need to post pictures of the thousands that lined the roads for those early City to city races and the early races like the French GP?

I'm talking about the casual fans Liberty thinks aren't watching because the rules are to complex, or the racing isn't close enough.

Honestly, I'd say anyone that's ever been to a race isn't a casual fan.

[strad]

Dan there are tens of thousands of fans that come from a time when there was no TV and instead waited anxiously for Competition Press or other publications to tell us what happened in a race. It was exciting and fans weren't abandoning the sport.

[Ringleheim]

F1 should break from car manufacturers. Road cars are heading toward automation and electrification. Forced marketing connections between track and road should be abandoned.

Ban automaker association, participation, and funding. Ban Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, and Renault. Leave motorsports companies only. Leave motorsport engine suppiers only. Williams, Sauber, RB, TR, Haas, RP, remain. New entrants will arrive.

This returns the racing cars to a singular focus: laptimes.

This eliminates automaker influence on funding and regulations.

This returns the spectacle to fans, away from pandering outreach to the general population.

This all makes very little sense.

[zac510]

Honestly, I'd say anyone that's ever been to a race isn't a casual fan.

I have been to the race with casual fans, the type that rarely even watch a race on TV, but only when the race is in a local city. Then it becomes a bit of a party weekend, easy access to both the track and then nightlife, good restaurants, etc afterwards. Camping in mud at Silverstone does not really lure casual fans, as much as it's also a party

Same for me and football; I never watch football on TV, but I'll go to a game if it's local, convenient and with good friend company.

[zac510]

Free up the regs and cheaper cars might be fielded that can produce similar laptimes. Low budget + room to experiment might yield victory over high budget + established design.

One of F1's issues is that it's too big and there are too many people with large financial stakes (not just Liberty, but 3rd parties like sponsors, TV contracts etc too) to turn it into a regulatory experiment that may or may not work.

I thought Ross Brawn would make small incremental aero changes each year to get around this kind of resistance to large changes, but Liberty seems more keen to just jump straight to 2021 regs.

A national F3 or touring car series can probably afford to loosen up the regs to create a kind of experiment (IMSA's allowance of the deltawing car might be a good example).

[roon]

Relevant to this thread?

By taking a stand against the actions of Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA and the wider commercial aspects of Formula One, McLaren, Williams and Tyrrell lost both influence in the sport and income which they would have received as signatories. A compromise was reached and on August 27, 1998, the 1998 Concorde Agreement was signed which accommodated the three teams and which expired on December 31, 2007.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_Agreement