2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

[zeph]

So that WAS fun!

I think Leclerc should be proud with today’s achievement; the way he fended off Verstappen twice, that was magnificent. Verstappen could only get by with force, finesse alone was not enough.

Terrible start, terrific race, well deserved victory for Verstappen. There was just no way he was not gonna win this today.

And congrats to Honda for their perseverance. They will get it right, no matter how long it takes.

[siskue2005]

I am quite frankly amazed that people seriously wanted to see Max penalized. If Leclerc didnt want to be put in a position where his tarmac was always going to disappear (the outside on corner exit).... he should have simply defended the inside because that’s where the majority of most successful defenses take place - not the outside / longer way around the corner.

It was stupid the first time, even more so the second time. I’ll give credit to Leclerc for having the balls to keep his foot planted on both occasions and battling back the position once, but it was always going to be a futile attempt.

Absolutely right decision. I’m surprised they even bothered with an investigation.

those are just scorned fans from canada, they claimed in canada that they want fair and hard racing and dont want this penalties, BUT the reality is that they just want a tit for tat kinda justice

[LM10]

On another note, do you friends think that Vettel could have caught Bottas if not for the troubled pit stop? Feels like Ferrari keeps shooting themselves in the foot wherever they can.

I think yes. He lost more than 3 seconds at the troubled pit stop alone, but the worse thing was that this lead to him coming out behind Gasly and Kimi (I think), thus losing even more time.

At the end Vettel was in DRS range of Bottas, but it was the last lap already.

[siskue2005]

So that WAS fun!

I think Leclerc should be proud with today’s achievement; the way he fended off Verstappen twice, that was magnificent. Verstappen could only get by with force, finesse alone was not enough.

Terrible start, terrific race, well deserved victory for Verstappen. There was just no way he was not gonna win this today.

And congrats to Honda for their perseverance. They will get it right, no matter how long it takes.

yup first win for them in 14 years!
shows in the hand of a good team they can indeed win

[zac510]

It was stupid the first time, even more so the second time. I’ll give credit to Leclerc for having the balls to keep his foot planted on both occasions and battling back the position once, but it was always going to be a futile attempt.

You see, you mention his previous lap, so it's not always futile.

PS, it seems that Ferrari had much better traction when NOT hitting the apex, so outside trajectory could have been benefitial: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27912&start=1410#p844914

You tried to use this argument on me, too, but you're just nitpicking on the use of always. In this case always means, on the balance of probability (for example 9 times out of 10) it's futile to be on the outside of that corner. They're poor odds, and just because Leclerc got lucky on the outside once, it doesn't make it a good idea to be on the outside. Nitpicking on language is a shallow argument and is not constructive.

The only time it's OK to be on the outside is when there's a wall there too, then the chance of the inside driver also being wrecked goes up, so he'll leave some space

[drunkf1fan]

VER having a bad start was probably a blessing in disguise. Ferrari didn't register him as a threat as a result. They responded to BOT pitstop, compromising them against VER. Otherwise they could have gone longer on softs.

Honestly, not really, they were on softs and were always going to lose out. They pitted 10 laps earlier and Valtteri "eats tires for fun" Bottas couldn't make his tires go further. Honestly if Verstappen didn't have a poor start then he's likely 2nd at worst, or 1st before the first stint is over, then either way Leclerc/Vettel/Bottas pit miles before him and actually with the comfortable position of having space and time to pit whenever he wanted and cruising rather than pushing he'd probably go even further on those mediums and have an even bigger advantage on the hards. Worst case is that without the bad start he probably pits even later and probably comes out in front of Bottas, worst case, he might be behind Vettel but far closer such that he'd have less time to make up on Leclerc and would probably have caught him 5-10 laps earlier. If he does pit and come out ahead of Bottas, he probably catches and passes Leclerc 15-20 laps earlier.

What it did was make the race a hell of a lot more interesting which is great though for the people watching.

It's not that Ferrari didn't register him as a threat, they couldn't go much longer on softs.

Seriously though, I've been kinda laughing at all the Bottas 2.0 stuff and pointing out that he's been competitive with Ham (at least more often) in any tracks with really low deg/easy conditions, any time there is deg he's woeful. Hamilton was clearly backing off way way more than Bottas and yet still gained a massive amount of time on him in the final laps and towards the end of the first stint it was clear Ham was being held up by Bottas. Bottas was drifting further from Leclerc despite the medium tires and Hamilton who was clearly trying to maintain a 3-4 second gap ended up gaining towards 1 second before Bottas pitted, then Ham set a bunch of fastest laps while doing another 10 laps and only pit because of potential damage which is a whole different matter. His times went bad for 2-3 laps but right before he pit he was back to a 1:09.4 which indicated most of his performance was back. Part of me thinks he just had a tiny flat spot or overheated the tires and it made that side feel like he'd broken something then they changed a wing out of panic rather than it being needed.

Either way I think the team held Hamilton back with basically fake messages that everyone else was slowing as much as he was (while team radio apparently says otherwise), I think they realised the positions were gone and protecting the engine was more important so basically created a situation such that he wouldn't push to the end while without the wing change and even if he just pushed harder he could probably have had third thanks to Bottas's again woeful performance in the latter stages of the a tire stint.

Bottas will again be competitive say in Russia, with no tire deg, but be poor in Cota, Brazil and most of the tracks that show some level of deg.

[WaikeCU]

Not penalizing does send a message for the future. Whenever you have a driver hugging the outside line in a turn, just take the normal line so that the other drivers drives into disappearing space and has to brake or take avoiding action.

[zac510]

Not penalizing does send a message for the future. Whenever you have a driver hugging the outside line in a turn, just take the normal line so that the other drivers drives into disappearing space and has to brake or take avoiding action.

Similarly if Leclerc had kept inside the track lines and both drivers had wrecked their cars in a clash of wheels, that would have to be considered a racing incident (IMO only!).

[Restomaniac]

So that WAS fun!

I think Leclerc should be proud with today’s achievement; the way he fended off Verstappen twice, that was magnificent. Verstappen could only get by with force, finesse alone was not enough.

Terrible start, terrific race, well deserved victory for Verstappen. There was just no way he was not gonna win this today.

And congrats to Honda for their perseverance. They will get it right, no matter how long it takes.

Honda and RedBull are benefiting massively from having a test mule in the races in STR.

I must ask how long RedBull will give Gasly though. If your teammate wins the race and you get lapped then..........well I don’t know what to say!

[zeph]

It’s like I said, Verstappen attacked twice with finesse, and twice Leclerc fended him off. The third time Max had to use a bit of muscle to make it stick.

Leclerc shouldn’t feel butthurt about being forced off the track, he should take confidence from the fact that a star like Verstappen needed to force the issue. It speaks volumes for his ability. I just KNEW Verstappen would get by the first time, and I could not believe Leclerc managed to stay ahead. Same thing the second time.
But Verstappen was way faster and there was no keeping him behind. He tried it clean twice, got impatient, and put Leclerc out. It didn’t matter, he would have gotten past anyhew, he just didn’t want to waste time on the inevitable.

[drunkf1fan]

Not penalizing does send a message for the future. Whenever you have a driver hugging the outside line in a turn, just take the normal line so that the other drivers drives into disappearing space and has to brake or take avoiding action.

THere has really always been a rule for this. Inside driver ahead at apex then he's allowed racing line which if that is on the outside means they can run the other driver out wide. The outside driver is not entitled to space so has a choice to attempt to fight and force the other driver to leave space or concede the position and slipstream.

If the outside driver is ahead at apex (and ahead means cms, not half a car length) then the driver is entitled to space and the inside driver would get penalised for running them out wide.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13159 ... pa-penalty

This was generally always accepted as the rules of racing, the FIA clarified the rule and Charlie repeatedly explained this to the drivers. I believe in the drivers meeting before the next race the drivers asked why one guy got a penalty and another didn't and Charlie again explained it.

In this case Verstappen was ahead at apex (very marginally) and was entitled to the line, in general that is a very consistent decision. I would say that in Brazil in 2016 that Verstappen was actually behind at apex and pushed Vettel off and strictly speaking deserved a penalty but the mitigating circumstance there were the conditions, there was spray into the corner which meant Vettel would have been very hard to see and frankly he had no reason to expect Vettel to be there. He was like 1-2 seconds faster a lap and blowing everyone away, there was no competition really, if he doesn't get the position there he gets it 2 corners further up the track so Vettel fighting back was both pretty much invisible and not expected.

Strictly speaking I'd call the Brazil one an odd one out and not entirely consistent but had mitigating circumstances. In normal weather and really when the move is being made into the corner these decisions are pretty consistent.

I think if Leclerc had been a few inches ahead at the apex then a penalty would be quite likely to be given, which again would have been consistent.

This also has nothing to do with Vettel's penalty. Vettel didn't make the corner, he lost any claim to rights to any line as he was rejoining and frankly he got the penalty because after rejoining and after gaining control he just chose to push Hamilton off when he was well alongside and at that point it was on the straight. Corners and straights have different rules. You can't choose to push someone off who is alongside, that was realistically what Vettel's penalty was actually for and though the situation came up because of going off track it had not much to do with it. If Vettel continues turning left as he was he would have left space but lost the position, it was his choice to close the gap and push Ham off track hence the penalty.

[iotar__]

Not penalizing does send a message for the future. Whenever you have a driver hugging the outside line in a turn, just take the normal line so that the other drivers drives into disappearing space and has to brake or take avoiding action.

In a polite and respectful tone: what have you been watching ? This type of wheel to wheel approach has been a reality in F1 for a long time.
Off the top:
- Hamilton sending Rosberg off in USA start
- Hamilton sending Rosberg off in Suzuka
- Perez - Grosjean recently was outright silly
- Sainz getting away with ramming Perez recently (the outcome when the other driver keeps the line and doesn't escape off track).
- Verstappen getting silly 5 s for going off (Monza?) and pushing Raikkonen off after coming back on track in an unsafe manner , one out of the two was not penalised.

Of course there are shades and grey areas, although not clean it doesn't have to be a penalty. Depends on when the cut happens, braking/speed/lines through the corner. IMO what counts is an attempt to pass where the two cars can take a corner together and getting in front early enough (again speed/line/corner dynamic), example would be those great outside passes when it's clean but in the final phase the other car has to give up, because that's how corners work.

Although Verstappen didn't even try the above I don't think it was enough to give him a penalty, especially in post Canada media farce F1. Leclerc is kind of right in saying that is not how you overtake but it doesn't matter. If I were his or Ferrari fan I'd be slightly annoyed but not outraged.

[mclaren113]

So RBR won. Let's move on and not making it a big deal..people are so desperate when RBR or max or honda haveing a good result..they're good but surly they took a step backward comparing to last year

[z.topoln]

I watched the race live at turn 2, such a terrific place to watch a race. Ferrari were taking wide line through t2 whole race, both vet and lec.

As the incident happened right in front of me, i feel like it wasnt a clean overtake. Had max left enough space the ferrari would just outpower hom on the straight, take the inside line into t3 and defend the place.

Leclerc should have been wiser and just parked it on the apex, mess up max's rythm and then power off and defend the inside. He is young , he will learn.

If race would be one lap longer, Vettel would get Bottas, but either way, I'm happy that Ferrari took the gamble, i just feel that they didnt push hard enough on softs...maybe they throught bottas will fall off in pace sooner.


Driver of the race has to be Carlos Sainz. I dont know how much was showed on TV, but that McLaren in his hands had some serious pace. He made like 15 overtakes in a race, almost caught Gasly at end. He was just spectalucar, but i feel that TV concentrated more on the front of the grid.

Raikkonen held off Gasly for so long, it really showed how smart racer Kimi is these days. Well, and how bad gasly is. Alfa was no where as fast as red bull.

The atmosphere on the track was absolute madness. If anyone thinks about visiting, i warmly recommend it. Just get used to the fact that Max has ALOT of fans.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

[aran.vtec]

So RBR won. Let's move on and not making it a big deal..people are so desperate when RBR or max or honda haveing a good result..they're good but surly they took a step backward comparing to last year

well yes and no, Last year it was really only Monaco and Mexico (and should of been brazil) that was won on merit others were either lucky safetys cars or mechanical failures from leaders