2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

[diffuser]

Rules are too complicated, nobody seems to know them and they don't always get enforced.

Make it simple, they both have to leave space.

Enforce it

[dans79]

Rules are too complicated, nobody seems to know them and they don't always get enforced.

Make it simple, they both have to leave space.

Enforce it

Say goodbye to anything but DRS passes on the straight then!

[diffuser]

Rules are too complicated, nobody seems to know them and they don't always get enforced.

Make it simple, they both have to leave space.

Enforce it

Say goodbye to anything but DRS passes on the straight then!

That isn't true. Hamilton passed Norris on the first lap on the outside on that very same corner. There are a ton of passes when exactly that happens.

[hollus]

First of all, thanks to everyone for an actually informative debate.
I came to the thread after the race 100% convinced it would be a 5 sec penalty, an automatic one, applying the "no crowding" and "leave space" parts of the rules.
Of course, sticking your car in the inside, a car that is always going to go back outside unless you slam the brakes (maybe even if), and presenting a back-off or crash option to the driver in the outside has been done for years and years, centuries, really. And I honestly thought that it had been outlawed in the last couple of years.
You guys, collectively, are pointing out that maybe not, that even probably not, and that those rules apply only in certain cases. I guess, as my signature says, it is, at least, gray.

No doubt that Max did stick it in the inside and no doubt in my mind that he expected his car to move back outside forcing Leclerc. But the debate remains on whether that is legal or not, and it looks like, maybe, it is even what the stewards expect of a driver making a marginal pass?

Anyways. Did I say "in my mind?" Well, look below: Max expected, wanted and made sure that his car would use all the track (which might very well be 100% legal!).
Look-where-his-head-is-ponting-in-each-lap. Full focus on the track on lap 68, full focus on Leclerc on lap 69. He clearly learns fast.

[Godius]

At the end of the day it was not clever of Leclerc to leave the door that wide open. It made him vulnerable going into turn 3, he should not have complained about the collision because he could have anticipated running out of track limit. Verstappen is a true racer and wouldn’t do the same thing 2 laps consecutively.

[roon]

Appx. L Chapter IV Article 2
b) Overtaking, according to the
circumstances, may be carried out on either
the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track
without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing
line, having earlier defended his position off-
line, should leave at least one car width
between his own car and the edge of the
track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards

[NathanOlder]

Being vulnerable in turn 3 is a lot better that being vulnerable in to turn 4. Taking the inside line in turn 3 means Max can set up and get a great exit for a DRS run down to turn 4.

Look at the move by Max on Seb, Seb defended going in to the corner, but ran wide on the exit. Max took the full racing line on the way in, took the apex and the ducked back under Seb on the Exit. So he had a higher exit speed. He then had DRS and slip streamed from a couple of tenths back to get a proper run on Seb. He then drove straight past Seb and no matter what Seb did, he couldnt stop Max as Max was well pass before the braking zone.

Gasly on Kimi was an even better example of the guy defending in to T3 leaving himself wide open in to T4 and impossible to defend. Charles was able to go around the outside knowing it will compromise Max's exit speed, and it would then take half of the straight for Max to match Charles speed, then only pull alongside at the end of the straight where Charles would then defend the inside.

So before people continue to go on about defending the inside in to T3, its not a good idea as most people will then pass you in before the braking zone to T4. Charles was very clever by pinning Max to the bottom line and slowing his exit down, knowing the Ferrari will pull clear down the straight and limit the slip stream. It only didnt work because Max was allowed to physically push him off the track!


Edit: another thing I'd like to add that most seem to either ignore or not know, Charles' line around that corner was always missing the apex, it was faster, it was his line, so the racing line is not necessarily to the Apex. Im pretty sure his pole lap wasnt anywhere near the apex, so his line was left hand side on entry, middle of track mid corner, and left hand side on exit. Pretty much what he was doing on lap 69 until Max forced him off.

[Restomaniac]

At the end of the day it was not clever of Leclerc to leave the door that wide open. It made him vulnerable going into turn 3, he should not have complained about the collision because he could have anticipated running out of track limit. Verstappen is a true racer and wouldn’t do the same thing 2 laps consecutively.

This is it. If you keep leaving the door ajar someone is gunna eventually kick it open. Right or wrong as it is.

I was amazed when LeClerc gave Verstappen the inside the second time. As the saying goes ‘Fool me once then shame on you. Fool me twice then shame on me’.

[carisi2k]

So lets go through these points and see if Max broke any of them. my answer in bold.

Appx. L Chapter IV Article 2b)
1) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
Answer MAX passed on the right
2) A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
Answer Max did not leave the track
3) More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Answer Max made no change of direction as shown in the in car camera
4) Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
Answer Max was not defending but passing and had the racing line and therefore there is no contravention of this rule
5)However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Answer Max took up his line and did not deliberately veer in to the other driver. It was the circuit characharistic that deceived to make this look the case.

Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards

Max was reported and appropriately found not guilty. Many of you on here should know of my dislike for "dutchboy" and I would have liked to have seen Leclerc win because I also dislike Vettel. I'm also sick and tired of hearing how the car in front should have to alway provide room to a car on the outside trying to make a ridiculous pass or re pass and claiming interference when the other car is still just trying to turn. There are 2 parties in such a manouvre and the second party can be just as much at fault as the first party.

[NathanOlder]

Just out of interest, what determines the racing line through a corner ?

[Just_a_fan]

What document deals with racecraft? Rules on passing, defending, etc. The F1 Sporting Regulations and the International Sporting Code make no mention of such matters. Hoping there is one and the stewards room during a race isn't an analog of what we do here. "Well, I seem to remember..."

I think that part of the problem is that a lot of the "racing rules" have developed between the drivers over the years. They're not written down in an official document - a bit like the British Constitution ("racing rules") vs the US Constitution (the Sporting and Technical Regulations).

These rules would have developed as a way of trying to stop drivers killing each other, and, of course, today's sport is so much more safe than Days of Yore.

[Just_a_fan]

I guess ferrari fans are disgusted with this sport to the point they don't care any more. I don't.

Were you disgusted back then too?
https://youtu.be/0AhNs_W5OQU

I was, with Vileneuve. Classic dive bomb move from Vileneuve, aka Ricciardo. Look at how he was locking his breaks on front right. He jumped into available space by carrying too much speed and bumped off Michael from racing line.

He doesn't lock up until Michael turns in on him. Michael did it much more successfully against Hill, of course, and probably thought he could get away with it a second time. Those incidents plus his parking, sorry, messing up the turn in Monaco, to prevent Alonso's fast lap, are all reasons why for many Schumacher isn't the greatest. Hugely successful, massively fast, skilled in the wet etc. yes, but those deliberate acts take the shine off for many.

[Espresso]

All thanks for the discussion. Loved to catch up the reading.
I leave my 'feelings' outside as I don't like Charles (character). For me he's a sneaky conniving dude. You see it in the way he 'fights' with Seb or try to control the team. I love Seb. Freaking emotional respons, just the way he is off track, he's also on track.
In real life Charles and Ferrari is kinda a match made in heaven....

My 2 cents. As I read the report blamed or cleared both drivers in friendly wording. Not just one. So fair decision in my eyes.

...We did not consider that either driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident...

Charles left the door wide open (on purpose), braked hard and late and deliberately turned (to far) in into Max trying to take the racing line..

Max hit the brakes a tiny bit later in round 69 and took the racing line bringing him to the outside at corner exit.


Only 'smart' move was (imho) Charles trying to give Max a 5 second penalty as he was aware he couldn't keep Max behind him. Ferrari didn't object to the decision. So the decision was also clear for team management.

[Restomaniac]

Just out of interest, what determines the racing line through a corner ?

I would say it’s the fastest line through it.
The problem starts when drivers prefer differing lines depending on their style and the car they drive. Which is why you won’t find it official or written down anywhere.

[iotar__]

I was, with Vileneuve. Classic dive bomb move from Vileneuve, aka Ricciardo. Look at how he was locking his breaks on front right. He jumped into available space by carrying too much speed and bumped off Michael from racing line. He was already unstable when he was hitting breaks and got a bit of bump from the curb.

Unfortunately, there was no F1Technical for people discuss that move and the history bought the viewpoint of those who had the footage and could comment. I am sure, in today's age, that topic would have consumed over 100 pages here.

https://i.imgur.com/KfjZMy7.png

- Thank you. I know which posts to skip automatically. At least alternative reality folks (Hamilton overtaking Bottas in Australia) have some imagination. This is not even amusing .

- Ferrari have only themselves to blame. Vettel cost them Canada win and many other wins and races.

- Leclerc was not sharp enough in Austria on top of messing up 70% of qualifying sessions and Verstappen can only overtake through fouls and looks good because Gasly is his team mate in otherwise competitive no man's land. Two "young guns" and the bright future of F1 .