2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

[sosic2121]

And yet, Vettel received 10s stop and go penalty for that(Baku 2017?), and even that wasn't enough for many of us here.

One happened behind a safety car, the other happened during the race, they are in no way comparable!

Exactly, one was minor contact while the other was accident which put other car off track, possibly into wall or something. Very dangerous stuff

[Andres125sx]

Politics, the usual and aweful politics in F1...

What the stewads said:

but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so

What happened in the real world, on that lap and the previous one

https://streamable.com/p1bt2

If track doesn´t get narrower each lap, I think we can´t find a better example of an absurd decision based on politics as the argument used is just too ridiculous...

What politics?

F1 politics. Verstappen winning in his home GP is good for the show, and also more teams beating Mercedes is good for the show.

But I want to repeat this

...

Anycase I agree this is done frequently in F1, and stewards usually are quite loose applying this rule. I can see the reason they didn´t penalize Max

As stated, stewards do not enforce this rule strictly so in this situation with Max taking the victory in last laps in front of the orange wave to me it was obvious he would never be penalized

I’m still just amused that the crowding on corner exit is such a big deal. It’s been done numerous times, time and time again. I also dont buy the excuses on why Leclerc avoided covering the inside. If he had done so, he would have forced Verstappen around the longer way around the corner and effectively done, what Max did to him instead. He didnt do it, he lost his strategic edge in that battle and there went the win.

Coming up with excuses and blaming it on the stewards post race is kind of weak when he could have done a better job at defending.

Ps: and as many know here, i’m really not a fan of Max’s racing ethics. But i’m not letting that cloud my judgement.

Yeah it´s been done repeatedly in the past, but that´s not an excuse to push someone out of track

For example Alonso did it from time to time (actually this is the only thing I didn´t like about Alonso driving). If others do it and are not penalized, any smart driver will do it. That´s the reason I always criticize stewards ignoring these maneouvers, they´re encouraging drivers to do it. I didn´t like it when Alonso did it, and I don´t like it when Max do it.


It´s pushing other car out of track. If you can´t avoid invading other´s line you simply made a mistake braking too late. With two cars in parallel none should go from edge to edge like Max did, this is a pretty basic rule at any motorsport. With modern tracks with tarmac all around it´s becoming frequent as they´re not pushing the rival to a wall, he only lose some time (so he can pass...) so something wich in the past would be seen as insane, nowadays is becoming standard. But the fact remains the same, pushing the rival out of track to gain an advantage

[DiogoBrand]

Quick question:
Was there a drifting competition at the Red Bull Ring last weekend?
I just can't understand why there were those weird tyre marks leading into the short layout after turn 1.

[z.topoln]

Diogo, they had something called red bull drift brothers going on on saturday, 2 guys smoking some tyres around that turn that connects the track.

Was fun but couldnt see much, only smoke

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

[F1NAC]

Quick question:
Was there a drifting competition at the Red Bull Ring last weekend?
I just can't understand why there were those weird tyre marks leading into the short layout after turn 1.
https://scontent.fpet2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5DB8F8A6

Here

https://youtu.be/eVWdH-3fSbo

[wesley123]

Politics, the usual and aweful politics in F1...

What the stewads said:

but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so

What happened in the real world, on that lap and the previous one

https://streamable.com/p1bt2

If track doesn´t get narrower each lap, I think we can´t find a better example of an absurd decision based on politics as the argument used is just too ridiculous...

What politics? There is a clear difference between the 2 attempts.
Verstappen wasnt as close to Leclerc on the run up to the second one so he had to brake later and ended up deeper into the corner (which is allowed).
Usually in that situation the car on the outside sees him coming, brakes early and cuts back across to have a better exit from the inside. That didnt happen because Verstappen came very late out of his slipstream and could only get his car alongside Leclercs which took away the opportunity for Leclerc to cut back across so he was stuck on the outside in a situation that was different than the lap before (which he realized too late I think).

That is great and all, but Max' steering input was much less on his second attempt.



Logically there would be more space if Max' gave more steering input, and he was clearly able to do so as seen on the lap before.

[henry]

Politics, the usual and aweful politics in F1...

What the stewads said:



What happened in the real world, on that lap and the previous one



If track doesn´t get narrower each lap, I think we can´t find a better example of an absurd decision based on politics as the argument used is just too ridiculous...

What politics? There is a clear difference between the 2 attempts.
Verstappen wasnt as close to Leclerc on the run up to the second one so he had to brake later and ended up deeper into the corner (which is allowed).
Usually in that situation the car on the outside sees him coming, brakes early and cuts back across to have a better exit from the inside. That didnt happen because Verstappen came very late out of his slipstream and could only get his car alongside Leclercs which took away the opportunity for Leclerc to cut back across so he was stuck on the outside in a situation that was different than the lap before (which he realized too late I think).

That is great and all, but Max' steering input was much less on his second attempt.

https://i.imgur.com/xUbJkaf.png

Logically there would be more space if Max' gave more steering input, and he was clearly able to do so as seen on the lap before.

Almost perfect evidence. Caught red/white strip handed. We could definitely say he deliberately drove Charles off because he had an action available, more lock, to avoid doing so. However, we need to see Charles road position to see if he was giving as much room as he did on lap 68. If he did, Max at fault, if he didn’t both at fault and maybe the Stewards are right.

[Phil]

Steering lock is dependant on speed. More speed = more force = wider radius = wider line.

[zac510]

But, but, but, but! (x1000)

[wesley123]

Steering lock is dependant on speed. More speed = more force = wider radius = wider line.

Which just confirms the same thing further.

[Jolle]

on L68 Leclerc was like: hey, this is my corner, move over. On L69: lets see how far I can open this door, please take the corner away from me.

Verstappen: Thanx!

now stop crying, Leclerc gave that corner to Verstappen how you give your teammate that corner after a pitwall call.

Quoting one of the greatest driver of F1: "All the time you have to leave a space".
Leclerc was a long Verstappen. Lap 68 Verstappen leaved a space, the next one, he didn't and there was contact.
This will open the door for some crazy overtakes.

I know the quote and who said it. I also think me meant "for me", seeing that he was one of the first drivers to use these kind of tactics (to quote another driver: "he let it be up to you if you had a crash or not")

[Alexf1]

The 2 appempts are too fundamentally different: 2nd attempt max went deeper into the corner as he came from further back and probably wanted to leave less room on the outside for Leclerc than the lap before. From that moment on it was up to Leclerc to either cut back like you would normally do or stay on the outside again just because that worked the lap before.

[izzy]

on L68 Leclerc was like: hey, this is my corner, move over. On L69: lets see how far I can open this door, please take the corner away from me.

Verstappen: Thanx!

now stop crying, Leclerc gave that corner to Verstappen how you give your teammate that corner after a pitwall call.

Quoting one of the greatest driver of F1: "All the time you have to leave a space".
Leclerc was a long Verstappen. Lap 68 Verstappen leaved a space, the next one, he didn't and there was contact.
This will open the door for some crazy overtakes.

I know the quote and who said it. I also think me meant "for me", seeing that he was one of the first drivers to use these kind of tactics (to quote another driver: "he let it be up to you if you had a crash or not")

it was Fernando, not Senna, and he generally did give space and was very fair on track. Tho obviously he did say it meaning space for himself that time

Austria T3 anyway you can't simply defend the inside it's tight and dirty, you'll lose to the undercut or just exit speed down to T4. Unless you run straight past the apex obviously, off the racing line, and see what the stewards will let you get away with

[Jolle]

Quoting one of the greatest driver of F1: "All the time you have to leave a space".
Leclerc was a long Verstappen. Lap 68 Verstappen leaved a space, the next one, he didn't and there was contact.
This will open the door for some crazy overtakes.

I know the quote and who said it. I also think me meant "for me", seeing that he was one of the first drivers to use these kind of tactics (to quote another driver: "he let it be up to you if you had a crash or not")

it was Fernando, not Senna, and he generally did give space and was very fair on track. Tho obviously he did say it meaning space for himself that time

Austria T3 anyway you can't simply defend the inside it's tight and dirty, you'll lose to the undercut or just exit speed down to T4. Unless you run straight past the apex obviously, off the racing line, and see what the stewards will let you get away with

oh yes, my bad. I heard the quote in my head and the accent sounded like Senna... But yes, Alonso was quite clean in that respect, as one of the very few.

But regarding covering the inside line, Leclerc did this on the lap before, and held the corner. On lap 89 he les all but defending that corner, going off track with two wheels on the opposite side. I also believe Verstappen made an extra point of not yielding, Leclerc will think twice the next time they go for the same corner.

[izzy]

oh yes, my bad. I heard the quote in my head and the accent sounded like Senna... But yes, Alonso was quite clean in that respect, as one of the very few.

But regarding covering the inside line, Leclerc did this on the lap before, and held the corner. On lap 89 he les all but defending that corner, going off track with two wheels on the opposite side. I also believe Verstappen made an extra point of not yielding, Leclerc will think twice the next time they go for the same corner.

well yes if you take the inside you'll be slow out, so you have to do something to slow down the other guy who's on the outside. If you're just following the racing line on the exit you're allowed to keep doing that even if there's a car on the outside of you. They all know this so the guy on the outside gives it up or gets pushed off, unless he's actually ahead

What Max did was not take the racing line but steer straight for a few metres past the apex, and with not being on the racing line that unwritten rule shouldn't apply and the rule about not crowding a car off the track should kick in. But he judged it to be in the grey area, unlike Rosberg who went all the way across. But for me it was more Senna than Fernando and I didn't like it. Everyone has their own preferences of course and mine are very biased to the fairness side of things, I love watching Lewis/Kimi/Fernando racing through a chicane, kind of thing, where it's all class and skill and the point is 'being the best' more than just 'winning' any way you can