Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protection

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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I think the HALO is the next logical step after the steps F1 took the last twenty-five years, what started with San Marino in 1994. A halo on a '95 car wouldn't have made much sense, it's the combination with the cockpit sides, the HANS (remember all the "oh I can't race with that thing" stuff that was going round?), strengthening of the safety cell, impact structures, etc etc.

Just in the years before 94, F1 has been lucky that that one important bit that was sticking out of the safety cell, unprotected in big crashes, didn't cause more injuries of deaths, like we've seen in other racing series.

Most people also forget that the 1994 season almost ended formula one, dying racing car drivers isn't good for sponsors and TV.

I like the simplicity of the HALO, it's relative cheap and will make a great change in safety especially in lower racing series, where additional safety features like wheel teathers and f1 style trackside safety are non existing.

n_we1ss
n_we1ss
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Joined: 22 Nov 2017, 06:43

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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izzy wrote:
n_we1ss wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 09:18
Senna died because of basilar skull fracture. No way halo would've saved him.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about eejit.
Senna was killed by the broken suspension attached to the wheel, which Halo would have blocked perfectly
The report confirmed Senna's Senna's injuries injuries were compatible with a massive blow above the right eyebrow. Pathologist Carrado Cipolla, said that Senna died not from the impact itself, but from a "blow to the head from a blunt object," indicating a photograph apparently showing a section of the front suspension.
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/picsf03.html
I have mixed feelings about this crash when it comes to the official reports (I actually didn't entirely believe it. The accident alone is fishy).

But the low cockpit is indeed quite dangerous. A stone nearly hit my visor (it hit the helmet chin instead. I think it was kickep up by a car at the front) during a Formula BMW test about a decade ago.
Last edited by n_we1ss on 08 Jul 2019, 12:43, edited 3 times in total.

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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n_we1ss wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 12:43

I have mixed feelings about this crash when it comes to the official reports (I actually didn't entirely believe it. The accident alone is fishy).
you can wonder about the steering column, but not about the head contact, and head contacts are exactly what Halo is there for and it's incredibly strong

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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izzy wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 13:54
n_we1ss wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 12:43

I have mixed feelings about this crash when it comes to the official reports (I actually didn't entirely believe it. The accident alone is fishy).
you can wonder about the steering column, but not about the head contact, and head contacts are exactly what Halo is there for and it's incredibly strong
I think the biggest takeaway from Imola '94 was that luck shouldn't be a part of walking away from an accident. Apart from the fuel bladder and the innovation with carbon fiber chassis, F1 didn't pay much attention on safety and was lucky for many years and many crashes. Even accidents like Donnelly's crash wasn't enough as a wake up. Since 1994 there have been many accidents that would be fatal without the improvements made following that weekend. Jos Verstappen at Spa and Hakkinen at Australia come to mind right away and probably Villeneuve a couple of times. We had F1 drivers die of being hit in the head with heavy objects in the past, a driver was hit with a fire extinguisher somewhere in the seventies in South Africa, but not in recent years but we had some almost.... so, not waiting for the next death, this is a good thing.

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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Jolle wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 14:13

I think the biggest takeaway from Imola '94 was that luck shouldn't be a part of walking away from an accident. Apart from the fuel bladder and the innovation with carbon fiber chassis, F1 didn't pay much attention on safety and was lucky for many years and many crashes. ... so, not waiting for the next death, this is a good thing.
yes i completely agree. A lot of people find safety a bit obscure i think, like I've seen it said before that because there was an injury like X the crash was unsurvivable, when the idea of whatever countermeasure is that the injury won't occur in the first place!

and people often find probabilities hard to deal with, and talk about 'freak' accidents or quote odd ones that a certain countermeasure wouldn't have worked with as though that makes all the others not exist. but as you say safety is all about making luck as small a factor as possible while knowing you can't ever eliminate it completely

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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Jolle wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 10:49


Most people also forget that the 1994 season almost ended formula one, dying racing car drivers isn't good for sponsors and TV.
Sadly, I think that only applies to Senna's death. Had the loss of life been solely Roland Ratzenberger's, I'm not sure it would have had nearly the same impact. And that's an absolute shame.

Of course, it was almost a triple loss - Rubens was very lucky to survive his accident at the chicane.

A driver in a modern car would have almost certainly walked away from all three accidents unscathed. That's the legacy of Imola 94.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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Jolle wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 14:13
a driver was hit with a fire extinguisher somewhere in the seventies in South Africa,
Tom Pryce in the 1977 South African Grand Prix. A young marshal crossing the track carrying an extinguisher was hit by Pryce's car at about 170mph. Pryce was unsighted behind another car (Stuck's) and never saw the marshal. Pryce was likely killed instantly and the extinguisher was thrown over a grandstand, such was the force of the impact. The marshal's body was terribly mutilated and wasn't identifiable at first. They had to do a roll call to discover who was missing. A terrible tragedy.

There is a video on youtube for those that want to see for themselves. It's sobering watching, I can tell you.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Most open wheel single-seater formula auto racing tournament are abandoning open-cockpit in favor of cockpit protect

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Just_a_fan wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 18:30
Jolle wrote:
08 Jul 2019, 14:13
a driver was hit with a fire extinguisher somewhere in the seventies in South Africa,
Tom Pryce in the 1977 South African Grands Prix. A young marshal crossing the track carrying an extinguisher was hit by Pryce's car at about 170mph. Pryce was unsighted behind another car (Stuck's) and never saw the marshal. Pryce was likely killed instantly and the extinguisher was thrown over a grandstand, such was the force of the impact. The marshal's body was terribly mutilated and wasn't identifiable at first. They had to do a roll call to discover who was missing. A terrible tragedy.

There is a video on youtube for those that want to see for themselves. It's sobering watching, I can tell you.
Yes. The story I heard as well that his car went on, crashing into Laffite at the end of the straight. Laffite got out of his car to confront Pryce with his driving only to discover that Pryce his head was missing.

Zorzi’s body language, who’s car was on fire and the marshal was on his way to and saw it happen, said enough. Together with Ceverts and Williamson’s death, one of the most graphic scenes. But this was of course before Formula one became big business.