2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

[sosic2121]

IF this is correct, then Verstappen's overtake is illegal.

what overtake specifically?

Just before the crash. When he overtook Vettel he left the track.

He did the same to Ricciardo twice.
In Germany T1 and Austria between T8 and T9. I'm sorry but I don't know what year I'm talking about.

In Germany it was allowed to go wide in T1, but in Austria it wasn't allowed.

[Restomaniac]

People are climbing all over Verstappen for doing something that LeClerc did in a far bigger way. If Verstappen was out of order on Vettel then what was LeClerc on Verstappen?

[DChemTech]

I've been passively lurking this forum for quite some time and generally enjoy the technical discussions as well as in-depth analysis of the races.
But this discussion on Vettel vs. Verstappen is completely getting pretty tiresome in my view.

Two certain individuals are intensely staunch in their viewpoint, and pretty much berate everyone who does not completely agree with them - even though their opinion is at odds with the stewards, the drivers and pretty much everyone else that expressed an opinion.
These same individuals tend to accuse others of being inflexible in their opinion and hostile towards opposing views; in other words, they accuse others of the behavior they consistently show themselves . And I am getting really tired of reading it, to a point where it really makes it difficult to enjoy those other discussions on the Silverstone grand prix.

Please, just let the whole thing rest. Even if you cannot agree that Vettel was to blame, at least agree to disagree then. We know your viewpoint, this whole thing is just going around in circles now.
And show a little respect to others. It's really baffling to see you accuse people of being "blinded by Verstappen fandom" (or something along those lines) while you are so inflexibly committed to your own righteousness that you do not seem to judge the perspectives of others fairly anymore. I've debated my fair share of flat earthers, antivaxxers and climate change deniers in my life, and I see huge parallels in behavior between you and them.

[dans79]

Just before the crash. When he overtook Vettel he left the track.

I wasn't in the stewards room, but my assumption on their thought process is as follows.

• As you can see in the semi-overhead shot, Max is clear of Seb before hear starts to turn in, so they most likely considered the overtake done at that point.
• Max runs wide on exit, but he won't get a penalty for that, because its a turn that considered self penalizing. By that I mean he is going over the curbs and can't get the power down and is thus losing time. This is most likely why Seb Closed in on him at the rate he did. specially when you consider Seb didn't take the ideal line through the turn either.

Now if Max & Seb had been overlapped on turn in, I think max would have gotten a penalty.

[digitalrurouni]

Ok I can't believe I am saying this when the Vettel and Verstappen incident was so cut and dry - it's the driver at the back whose sole responsibility is to navigate his machine around the person he intends to overtake. Simple. Done. Dusted. Penalty deserved. Max didn't do anything wrong. We all know wheel to wheel is not Rosberg and or Vettel's strengths. Move on folks.

Now what I would rather talk about is how Hamilton drives his car so that he can make the tires last so well. Thoughts? I mean how does he keep so much speed lap after lap and not kill his tires? I am very curious. Mark Hughes' article referred some about his driving style but hoping the forum members could illuminate more.

[santos]

Just before the crash. When he overtook Vettel he left the track.

He did the same to Ricciardo twice.
In Germany T1 and Austria between T8 and T9. I'm sorry but I don't know what year I'm talking about.

In Germany it was allowed to go wide in T1, but in Austria it wasn't allowed.

Doesn't look to be with all 4 wheels off the track.
If it was, that would be a theme of conversation. That's a kind of problem i think FIA should look into. Because even for people that watch all of the races for years it's complicated to understand why in some corners drivers are penalized and in other corners don't.

[F1Krof]

Just before the crash. When he overtook Vettel he left the track.

He did the same to Ricciardo twice.
In Germany T1 and Austria between T8 and T9. I'm sorry but I don't know what year I'm talking about.

In Germany it was allowed to go wide in T1, but in Austria it wasn't allowed.

Doesn't look to be with all 4 wheels off the track.
If it was, that would be a theme of conversation. That's a kind of problem i think FIA should look into. Because even for people that watch all of the races for years it's complicated to understand why in some corners drivers are penalized and in other corners don't.

It's because in some corners drivers can actually gain laptime and on some if they go out they lose laptime.

[dans79]

Doesn't look to be with all 4 wheels off the track.

You can only really tell in Seb's on board at the end of this video. It's not by much and not for long, but he definitely has all 4 off.

[dans79]

Now what I would rather talk about is how Hamilton drives his car so that he can make the tires last so well. Thoughts? I mean how does he keep so much speed lap after lap and not kill his tires? I am very curious. Mark Hughes' article referred some about his driving style but hoping the forum members could illuminate more.

I've heard a few pundits infer as much. They always seem to infer one of two things. One, that he brakes in a strait line as much as possible, and only turns in once he is off the brakes. Two, he is smoother getting on the power than other drivers.

[RZS10]

Max's front wheels are steering a bit right still

From Seb's onboard in that shot one can see that Max is halfway between both braking markers (8/16 frames he spends between them).
From Max' onboard (f1.com video) one can see that your statement is straight up false, not only is there not a single frame where he turns right after coming off the curb, he can't be "steering a bit right still" when his wheel is slightly turned left, can he?

His first steering input to the right to open up the corner comes briefly before the second marker, that's where he starts moving to the right.

Of course his car moved to the right coming out of that 250km/h+ corner however, that is not his "first defensive move" but his natural/organic/logical line having been so deep into the previous one, there is no second line change or defensive move, only one. Then obviously the change of direction (which would be perfectly legal) later on to have a better entry into the corner but at that point Max was doomed because of Vettel's misjudgement of the situation anyways.

Oh and one more thing, drawing a few perspective lines from Max' car it shows what he's aiming towards - the apex, meaning that the gap on the left would always disappear. That is what i was trying to show with the 'line on an empty track' as you put it.


If this would have been a long straight (like Baku) and Max would have slammed the door shut (like Baku) you might have had a point but you have to consider the previous corners and relative car positions and then it's not at all "the same" as Baku.

[izzy]

it's the driver at the back whose sole responsibility is to navigate his machine around the person he intends to overtake. Move on folks.

lol it's not skiing, this is 100% pure distilled invention, that's why you're hoping nobody will argue

cos you can't quote such a rule can you?

[izzy]

From Seb's onboard in that shot one can see that Max is halfway between both braking markers (8/16 frames he spends between them).
From Max' onboard (f1.com video) one can see that your statement is straight up false, not only is there not a single frame where he turns right after coming off the curb, he can't be "steering a bit right still" when his wheel is slightly turned left, can he?
https://i.imgur.com/6WPO1ow.png
His first steering input to the right to open up the corner comes briefly before the second marker, that's where he starts moving to the right.

Of course his car moved to the right coming out of that 250km/h+ corner however, that is not his "first defensive move" but his natural/organic/logical line having been so deep into the previous one, there is no second line change or defensive move, only one. Then obviously the change of direction (which would be perfectly legal) later on to have a better entry into the corner but at that point Max was doomed because of Vettel's misjudgement of the situation anyways.

Oh and one more thing, drawing a few perspective lines from Max' car it shows what he's aiming towards - the apex, meaning that the gap on the left would always disappear. That is what i was trying to show with the 'line on an empty track' as you put it.
https://i.imgur.com/d9j6nsY.png

If this would have been a long straight (like Baku) and Max would have slammed the door shut (like Baku) you might have had a point but you have to consider the previous corners and relative car positions and then it's not at all "the same" as Baku.

The gap to the left is biggest before the first marker board, then as Seb aims for it Max starts closing it:

There's no reason anybody would aim at the apex from that distance. the line is off to the right! With the straight lines thing it's actually into the bulge that Max pushes him, they've already collided by the time it narrows again

[langedweil]

You can keep going on man. But you have bottled it. I lost all the respect I had for you. You became one of those here who doesn't know how to keep personal and other unrelated stuff separate. What you are doing now, is pure s***ty trolling. Just a shame.

You do understand this kinda reads like one's yelling "I never raise my voice !!", right?
Anyway, let's keep things civilized .. agree to disagree or something along that road.

[RZS10]

The gap to the left is biggest before the first marker board, then as Seb aims for it Max starts closing it:
https://66.media.tumblr.com/c4c7c08867e ... 1_1280.png

He was never NOT closing it - have you looked at Max' onboard? He got out of the corner and continued going left without actively reacting to Vettel's move as the pics and gifs i posted previously show:
viewtopic.php?p=848209#p848209

There's no reason anybody would aim at the apex from that distance. the line is off to the right!

Well maybe, just maybe, one would aim for the apex in order to defend the inside line?

[...] there's no reason in the world for Max to take that line except to defend from Seb [...]

Oh...

With the straight lines thing it's actually into the bulge that Max pushes him

You can't 'push' someone anywhere who isn't side by side (?)

Not saying there was no space on the left, just that that space would always disappear because of the track layout and Vettel's decision to go for that space was a mistake, especially since it was very clear early on that Max would defend the inside

[NathanOlder]

Yep, that's the one! So much more pleasing to look at. Honetly, Liberty makes it look like it's run by robots or something, like they don't stop and contemplate before doing something and just EXECUTE COMMAND.

I agree. However, while the new tachometers might look bland, the choice is between that or nothing at all. The usual "old style" telemetry is available for a very limited amount of cars and always for only one car at a time. New style telemetry is available for every car, every session, all the time.

Personally i think it's good enough, and combined with F1TV now actually working to an acceptable level, we now have an unprecedented access to onboard footage and speed/throttle readings. Not all work done by liberty has been bad.

Ah yes of course, overall it is much better and I do like how much Liberty has worked on bringing F1 "online", so to speak. It's just the small changes that nobody asked for that bug me (like nobody asking for excessive visual changes or fake sounds being played and all that).

I cannot stand the bloomin noises when the lights come on at the start of the race! And surely its missing an extra different tone when the lights go out??

Its currently

beep, beep, beep, beep, beep

and then they go out.

surely

beep, beep, beep, beep, beep
..... BING!!!