2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

[izzy]

he just tried to go into a none-existing gap,

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?

[turbof1]

he just tried to go into a none-existing gap,

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png

2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.

[jz11]

I can't believe this discussion about the non-existent gap is still going on, that is not a gap you see there in regards to overtaking on Max, it may close any second (and it did), Vettel simply misjudged his opponent - expecting him to return to racing line to actually try and carry some speed through the next corner

Max has cultivated the image of being impossible to pass - he needs it to make the WDC happen in the near future, hence he couldn't allow for the inside to open up, Vettel momentarily forgot about that expecting to dive on the inside, remembered it and apologized for the mistake

there is nothing more to read in this situation, forget about the kink on the left side of the track, same thing would have happened even if it was a straight, and Max was fully entitled to defend that way, quite desperate if you ask me, and absolutely necessary for him, because just the race before that, he made sure that in the future there will be absolutely no space for him on the outside of anyone he is seriously competing with - those are the consequences of the gift he received in Austria

edit: about the last paragraph, absolutely no sarcasm, I really do think his defense was legal, and he had to do it in order to keep the place, else he would have to prolong the fight in the next corner, hoping that he wouldn't be pushed off the track of course

and P.S. to the edit: if Vettel had a bit more cool, he wouldn't have made the move, instead complain that Max went off track to complete the overtake, and yes, going off track WAS part of the overtake, Max missed his turn in and went wide and off the track because he needed the extra speed to get past Vettel, so it is absolutely comical to me when some here still defend Max saying something along the lines - oh, but was already past Vettel, that is why it was ok to go off track

[Wouter]

he just tried to go into a none-existing gap,

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png

2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.

Exactly!

[izzy]

he just tried to go into a none-existing gap,

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png

2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.

yes but, why was the gap not there any more? There WAS a gap. Seb went for it, then Max closed it. It's simply not correct to say there wasn't a gap for Seb to go for.

There was a gap, and the only reason it disappeared was because Seb went for it and Max was watching and moved over

After that, there are some different issues about it but there was a gap. You can't say the gap didn't exist long enough to be a gap. It was a gap until Max closed it

[Pyrone89]

Still somehow trying to pin this and the Leclerc battle on Max? Dear god

[Webber2011]

Anyone tea ?

How about Rum and Coke?

I do prefer with lemon please

I only finished work two hours ago, and I've had 6 Guinness Extra Stouts

No one's going I win this thread, but its hilarious watching the same combatants go head to head when you've had a few beers

[turbof1]

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png

2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.

yes but, why was the gap not there any more? There WAS a gap. Seb went for it, then Max closed it. It's simply not correct to say there wasn't a gap for Seb to go for.

There was a gap, and the only reason it disappeared was because Seb went for it and Max was watching and moved over

After that, there are some different issues about it but there was a gap. You can't say the gap didn't exist long enough to be a gap. It was a gap until Max closed it

But Vettel admitted there was no gap.

[yelistener]

and P.S. to the edit: if Vettel had a bit more cool, he wouldn't have made the move, instead complain that Max went off track to complete the overtake, and yes, going off track WAS part of the overtake, Max missed his turn in and went wide and off the track because he needed the extra speed to get past Vettel, so it is absolutely comical to me when some here still defend Max saying something along the lines - oh, but was already past Vettel, that is why it was ok to go off track

Not sure why this is still be a subject. The stewards set the strict no-off-track rule ONLY for some corners. Some other corners you can go off track. It's been like this for many years, which in Silverstone Stowe is one of them, Luffield is another. In Bahrain, for years at T3 you can go off track both in quali and in race for overtaking.

At corners like Luffield, F1 doesn't give the exact no-off-track order by words to the drivers. Instead they use gravel (or pavement with different friction) to limit the drivers from doing that. Last year at Luffield the gravel had more than a car width distance to the white line, so they all went off track. F1 was not happy about it, so this year they extended the gravel to less than a car width distance to the white line, and then of cause every driver respected the track limit. Technically, you can still go off track at Luffield this year getting a valid laptime. You will just run on gravel and completely f**k up your lap of cause.

[Wouter]

why don't you see this as a gap? i mean, how much more gap-like could it be?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/25e2c8eae65 ... 1_1280.png

2-3 frames later that gap is not there anymore, and Vettel has not set even a leading edge of his front wing alongside Verstappen.

I mean, Vettel himself admitted there was no gap.

yes but, why was the gap not there any more? There WAS a gap. Seb went for it, then Max closed it. It's simply not correct to say there wasn't a gap for Seb to go for.

There was a gap, and the only reason it disappeared was because Seb went for it and Max was watching and moved over

After that, there are some different issues about it but there was a gap. You can't say the gap didn't exist long enough to be a gap. It was a gap until Max closed it

Sebastian Vettel in front of the camera after the race:
'My mistake. The hole that I thought was coming didn't come '

So you know better than Vettel himself, or is he lying?

[izzy]

But Vettel admitted there was no gap.

but we can see he was wrong, can't we? or being political, and of course it all happened very fast. but there it was, a gap

after that, we can debate whether Max was entitled to move over, but that's another issue. There was a gap, until Max closed it

[izzy]

Sebastian Vettel in front of the camera after the race:
'My mistake. The hole that I thought was coming didn't come '

So you know better than Vettel himself, or is he lying?

why shouldn't we know better than Seb before he's even had time to look at a replay? we can watch all different angles in slowmo, and even do a screen grab showing there 100% definitely was in fact a GAP

[turbof1]

But Vettel admitted there was no gap.

but we can see he was wrong, can't we? or being political, and of course it all happened very fast. but there it was, a gap

after that, we can debate whether Max was entitled to move over, but that's another issue. There was a gap, until Max closed it

He said himself he was wrong yes, to go for a gap that wasn't there. He specifically said he misjudged it. Him admitting that, the one in the cockpit trying to pull that move, is I think the biggest proof of all. We all know Vettel is not about being political. He also confirmed this a day or two afterwards, in which time he surely must have seen the footage.

You are right there was a one car width space between Verstappen and the edge of the track, but that's simply not a gap as Verstappen was able to jump himself in that space before Vettel was able to. In order to qualify as a gap, the driver behind has to be able to get his car alongside before the driver in front is able to close the door. This is not that situation. Verstappen closed it off, as he was entitled to do as long as he did not hit Vettel.

This is racecraft too: judging when a space is gap to jump into, or just a space. It is why you see a driver like Ricciardo throwing feints before going for the opposite side. The driver in front closes off the wrong space and leaves a gap for the driver behind to jump into. But Verstappen here did pretty much a standard move, going to the inside to close off the inside line.

[cooken]

Do you comprehend the shape called "triangle" ? Max was driving straight, on a trajectory that was going to create a smaller and smaller space between him and the edge.

Seb went for a gap that was already closing. Think of it like a mirage. You see it but once you get there is gone.

[jz11]

and P.S. to the edit: if Vettel had a bit more cool, he wouldn't have made the move, instead complain that Max went off track to complete the overtake, and yes, going off track WAS part of the overtake, Max missed his turn in and went wide and off the track because he needed the extra speed to get past Vettel, so it is absolutely comical to me when some here still defend Max saying something along the lines - oh, but was already past Vettel, that is why it was ok to go off track

Not sure why this is still be a subject. The stewards set the strict no-off-track rule ONLY for some corners. Some other corners you can go off track. It's been like this for many years, which in Silverstone Stowe is one of them, Luffield is another. In Bahrain, for years at T3 you can go off track both in quali and in race for overtaking.

At corners like Luffield, F1 doesn't give the exact no-off-track order by words to the drivers. Instead they use gravel (or pavement with different friction) to limit the drivers from doing that. Last year at Luffield the gravel had more than a car width distance to the white line, so they all went off track. F1 was not happy about it, so this year they extended the gravel to less than a car width distance to the white line, and then of cause every driver respected the track limit. Technically, you can still go off track at Luffield this year getting a valid laptime. You will just run on gravel and completely f**k up your lap of cause.

is it that hard to comprehend that going off there in quali or while leading the race (or just cruising in free air) does compromise your lap, but when you overtake someone there by going off and then rejoin the track just to block off your competitor that stayed within the white lines are 2 totally different things?

applying same judgement to these 2 situations is simply wrong, because the consequences are totally not comparable

edit: to continue the comparison between those 2 situations - the penalty that Max had to endure by going off, the speed difference when he rejoined the track - that is what created the situation in the first place that Vettel tried to exploit, and Max very well knew that, that is why he absolutely had to defend that inside line to the death (read - crash)

had the distance to the next corner been greater, Vettel wouldn't need to go for the inside line, he would just cruise around him on the outside, but the track is what it is

and AGAIN we return to that same dreaded inside-line-is-king situation that arose after Austria ruling, see - if the ruling was different, then the outside line would still be an option for Vettel, but it just isn't any more, thanks to Maxes move in the previous race and stewards ruling

now do you see the effect Max has on the racing overall?

P.S. to the edit, and people complained that DRS made overtaking simple, well, now it even dumber, if you're on the inside - you win

P.P.S. I re red your comment, and you totally misunderstand how rules work (at least how they should work) - competition takes place WITHIN the white lines, with some exclusions, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, and for the 8157490574902857492835749028357490283574th time - if there was no advantage to going wide - they wouldn't do it, and if the stewards had more sense, they would make it totally clear to everyone - you go outside the white lines - you get DSQ or penalty, in qualy that means your lap is discarded, in race, while fighting for position - you give the place back (like it has been since recent times, all for the sake of the show again...), and if you went wide while cruising - you lost time - self inflicting penalty

go argue with a line judge in tennis that you the ball you just served 3mm outside the line was slower than usual, so the opponent wasn't at a real disadvantage having to have had to receive it, see where that takes you, but F1 somehow is different, all the time there are special cases here and there, and then color of a car start to make difference, or used to, how much prize money the team got, how popular the driver is etc, that is all BS that didn't have to exist