Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[henry]

With charging EV's you have to forget about how we use petrol fuel stations.
With petrol engines we refuel when we're running out of petrol, almost always while we on route. EV's can charge while we are not on route. This way you start your journey almost always with a 100% charge.

There are many ways in which we might need to change our thinking. Starting each journey with 100% may be replaced with starting with a percentage required dependant on previous journey patterns, planned and scheduled activities, priority of battery life versus availability and many I can’t imagine right now. Cars will become part of the integrated home managed to meet your needs and lifestyle.

Also, the way we use and demand electrical power. Up til now, most is on demand, putting up a lot of stress on the power grid. EV's could be used to balance out the grid to keep the power more stable.

A couple of weeks ago we had a power interruption in the U.K. We lost around 2 GW of supply, and hence had a frequency drop, for about 15 mins. The distribution frequency was fixed by disconnecting some users, most notably part of the rail network, and then bringing on relief supplies. If there had been 250,000 cars connected willing to give up 8kW for 15 minutes the need for disconnects would not have been there.

Currently there are currently around 250,000 plug in vehicles, most are hybrids, maybe 50,000 EVs. The overall car fleet in the U.K. is 26 million so there doesn’t need to be a huge changeover to start to make grid support look realistic.

[roon]

There are many ways in which we might need to change our thinking. Starting each journey with 100% may be replaced with starting with a percentage required dependant on previous journey patterns, planned and scheduled activities, priority of battery life versus availability and many I can’t imagine right now. Cars will become part of the integrated home managed to meet your needs and lifestyle.

Also, the way we use and demand electrical power. Up til now, most is on demand, putting up a lot of stress on the power grid. EV's could be used to balance out the grid to keep the power more stable.

A couple of weeks ago we had a power interruption in the U.K. We lost around 2 GW of supply, and hence had a frequency drop, for about 15 mins. The distribution frequency was fixed by disconnecting some users, most notably part of the rail network, and then bringing on relief supplies. If there had been 250,000 cars connected willing to give up 8kW for 15 minutes the need for disconnects would not have been there.

Currently there are currently around 250,000 plug in vehicles, most are hybrids, maybe 50,000 EVs. The overall car fleet in the U.K. is 26 million so there doesn’t need to be a huge changeover to start to make grid support look realistic.

Can existing EV charge ports and CE discharge at a symmetrical rate?

[Jolle]

Also, the way we use and demand electrical power. Up til now, most is on demand, putting up a lot of stress on the power grid. EV's could be used to balance out the grid to keep the power more stable.

A couple of weeks ago we had a power interruption in the U.K. We lost around 2 GW of supply, and hence had a frequency drop, for about 15 mins. The distribution frequency was fixed by disconnecting some users, most notably part of the rail network, and then bringing on relief supplies. If there had been 250,000 cars connected willing to give up 8kW for 15 minutes the need for disconnects would not have been there.

Currently there are currently around 250,000 plug in vehicles, most are hybrids, maybe 50,000 EVs. The overall car fleet in the U.K. is 26 million so there doesn’t need to be a huge changeover to start to make grid support look realistic.

Can existing EV charge ports and CE discharge at a symmetrical rate?

I doubt the current generation is capable of that, but the next generation might. It’s also the idea behind the Daimler and Tesla wall batteries, to store and charge when electricity is cheap and/or available.
In maintain Europe we rarely have a power outage because the whole grid is connected. France for instance relies on 80% nuclear power, which can’t be “turned up or down” in an instance but the hydro plants in Norway can, with a simple valve. So I imagine at night, when nobody demands coffee or puts on the fryer, France powers a large amount of Europe, etc etc.

Good chance when EV’s become less rare, you don’t need power flow from the EV to the grid, you can probably balance the grid by charging the EV’s more or less and always work with a slight over capacity.

[henry]

Ovo in the U.K. are offering vehicle to grid installations using a Nissan Leaf to manage peak and trough demand. Their connector is 6kW symmetrical. They advertise storing when Grid capacity is high and discharging when low, rather as @Jolle is suggesting. They suggest a user can potentially eliminate charging costs.

[Jolle]

Ovo in the U.K. are offering vehicle to grid installations using a Nissan Leaf to manage peak and trough demand. Their connector is 6kW symmetrical. They advertise storing when Grid capacity is high and discharging when low, rather as @Jolle is suggesting. They suggest a user can potentially eliminate charging costs.

This probably gives Ovo the opportunity to have better deals and a more steady stream of electricity. On a big scale, I imagine it changes the energy market and capacity managing from seconds to minutes. Just imagine what happens when everybody around seven o clock put the kettle and toaster on. This demand now has to be matched directly by a gas turbine to keep the 50 hertz level. Of course, the overall use of electricity goes up.

For Ovo grid capacity is high, when there are less users, and when it’s low, the demand is high. Peak use is what is expensive for Ovo.

[Andres125sx]

Considering battery cost and their limited lifespan/cycles, I wonder what will be the compensation to become part of the grid we all have paid with our taxes

[Greg Locock]

Mine. I worked it out for a typical long Australian journey, Melbourne to Sydney. All the power needed for those 6000 cars a day has to be supplied from end to end.

[Jolle]

Mine. I worked it out for a typical long Australian journey, Melbourne to Sydney. All the power needed for those 6000 cars a day has to be supplied from end to end.

Thats 6000 cars out of a million or so in that area?

I presume it's about a ten hour drive, mostly done in two or three stints, with lunch and dinner in between, where at the reststops there will be plenty of charging points for those other million cars.

[Greg Locock]

I gather you haven't driven along that road. There's a handful of service stations. And some one horse towns. And a 'big' one in the middle. With 89007 people in it. Perhaps they own 10 EVs each. Do you lot ever do ANY research before spouting off?

[Just_a_fan]

And as has been pointed out previously, the Australian outback is not typical usage for the vast majority of the world's car-using population. The vast majority are urban or semi-urban so journey distances are measured in the tens of miles, not the hundreds of miles.

So EVs won't work for the drive from Sydney to Melbourne? OK. Should the rest of the world stop developing the technology in that case?

[Just_a_fan]

I see Porsche are about to release their latest EV - the Taycan. This uses an 800V system that, coupled with the appropriate charger, gives a recharge time of 15 minutes for a real world range of 250miles. If that is the case, then that rather nicely deals with the "I don't want to sit around for an hour waiting for a recharge, I want to be able to fill up and go" naysayers. A 15 minute pause every 4 hours of driving (at realistic speeds for most countries), is not unheard off. It's enough time to stretch ones legs, go to the toilet, get a coffee and walk back to the car, ready to drive on.

And yes, it requires 800V charging infrastructure, but that will come with customer demand, or even with manufacturer's using them as selling points for the car - buy our cars, use our charging stations. It's what Tesla have been doing, after all.

[Big Tea]

I see Porsche are about to release their latest EV - the Taycan. This uses an 800V system that, coupled with the appropriate charger, gives a recharge time of 15 minutes for a real world range of 250miles. If that is the case, then that rather nicely deals with the "I don't want to sit around for an hour waiting for a recharge, I want to be able to fill up and go" naysayers. A 15 minute pause every 4 hours of driving (at realistic speeds for most countries), is not unheard off. It's enough time to stretch ones legs, go to the toilet, get a coffee and walk back to the car, ready to drive on.

And yes, it requires 800V charging infrastructure, but that will come with customer demand, or even with manufacturer's using them as selling points for the car - buy our cars, use our charging stations. It's what Tesla have been doing, after all.

Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, I am pro EV, but what about the waiting time to get 'plugged in'?
A fuel station often has several cars waiting, and 'use times' of 3 - 5 min. If the use time for a charge point is 20 - 30 min, plus the usual thoughtless 2 hour wanderer, there will have to be lots and lots of units and waiting slots to be viable.

Once the range is good enough this will not be a problem, but this will be the very time it will put people off switching.

I suppose it opens up the possibility of many small suppliers opening shop as the requirements are far less than selling and storing liquid fuel. Is it beyond the realms of possibility of a van in the carpark supplying say 4 vehicles?
Small business opportunities. Haircut and charge

[Jolle]

I see Porsche are about to release their latest EV - the Taycan. This uses an 800V system that, coupled with the appropriate charger, gives a recharge time of 15 minutes for a real world range of 250miles. If that is the case, then that rather nicely deals with the "I don't want to sit around for an hour waiting for a recharge, I want to be able to fill up and go" naysayers. A 15 minute pause every 4 hours of driving (at realistic speeds for most countries), is not unheard off. It's enough time to stretch ones legs, go to the toilet, get a coffee and walk back to the car, ready to drive on.

And yes, it requires 800V charging infrastructure, but that will come with customer demand, or even with manufacturer's using them as selling points for the car - buy our cars, use our charging stations. It's what Tesla have been doing, after all.

Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, I am pro EV, but what about the waiting time to get 'plugged in'?
A fuel station often has several cars waiting, and 'use times' of 3 - 5 min. If the use time for a charge point is 20 - 30 min, plus the usual thoughtless 2 hour wanderer, there will have to be lots and lots of units and waiting slots to be viable.

Once the range is good enough this will not be a problem, but this will be the very time it will put people off switching.

I suppose it opens up the possibility of many small suppliers opening shop as the requirements are far less than selling and storing liquid fuel. Is it beyond the realms of possibility of a van in the carpark supplying say 4 vehicles?
Small business opportunities. Haircut and charge

In none rural areas most or almost all trips are within the range of a modern EV, therefore most of the refuelling you see now are on short trips. With charing while parked, most EV users (especially in cities) will never see a charge station.

What does change, at least, how I would change my behaviour, is use the car more, even on short trips. Now (calvinistic upbringing) anything below 2-3 miles I do by bike, because a petrol or Diesel engine doesn't like to do short trips. An EV doesn't care.

[Big Tea]

I see Porsche are about to release their latest EV - the Taycan. This uses an 800V system that, coupled with the appropriate charger, gives a recharge time of 15 minutes for a real world range of 250miles. If that is the case, then that rather nicely deals with the "I don't want to sit around for an hour waiting for a recharge, I want to be able to fill up and go" naysayers. A 15 minute pause every 4 hours of driving (at realistic speeds for most countries), is not unheard off. It's enough time to stretch ones legs, go to the toilet, get a coffee and walk back to the car, ready to drive on.

And yes, it requires 800V charging infrastructure, but that will come with customer demand, or even with manufacturer's using them as selling points for the car - buy our cars, use our charging stations. It's what Tesla have been doing, after all.

Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, I am pro EV, but what about the waiting time to get 'plugged in'?
A fuel station often has several cars waiting, and 'use times' of 3 - 5 min. If the use time for a charge point is 20 - 30 min, plus the usual thoughtless 2 hour wanderer, there will have to be lots and lots of units and waiting slots to be viable.

Once the range is good enough this will not be a problem, but this will be the very time it will put people off switching.

I suppose it opens up the possibility of many small suppliers opening shop as the requirements are far less than selling and storing liquid fuel. Is it beyond the realms of possibility of a van in the carpark supplying say 4 vehicles?
Small business opportunities. Haircut and charge

In none rural areas most or almost all trips are within the range of a modern EV, therefore most of the refuelling you see now are on short trips. With charing while parked, most EV users (especially in cities) will never see a charge station.

What does change, at least, how I would change my behaviour, is use the car more, even on short trips. Now (calvinistic upbringing) anything below 2-3 miles I do by bike, because a petrol or Diesel engine doesn't like to do short trips. An EV doesn't care.

Is that an eBike

[Jolle]

Not wanting to throw cold water on the idea, I am pro EV, but what about the waiting time to get 'plugged in'?
A fuel station often has several cars waiting, and 'use times' of 3 - 5 min. If the use time for a charge point is 20 - 30 min, plus the usual thoughtless 2 hour wanderer, there will have to be lots and lots of units and waiting slots to be viable.

Once the range is good enough this will not be a problem, but this will be the very time it will put people off switching.

I suppose it opens up the possibility of many small suppliers opening shop as the requirements are far less than selling and storing liquid fuel. Is it beyond the realms of possibility of a van in the carpark supplying say 4 vehicles?
Small business opportunities. Haircut and charge

In none rural areas most or almost all trips are within the range of a modern EV, therefore most of the refuelling you see now are on short trips. With charing while parked, most EV users (especially in cities) will never see a charge station.

What does change, at least, how I would change my behaviour, is use the car more, even on short trips. Now (calvinistic upbringing) anything below 2-3 miles I do by bike, because a petrol or Diesel engine doesn't like to do short trips. An EV doesn't care.

Is that an eBike

E-bikes are brilliant!! They are in the Netherlands rapidly taking the place of mopeds. Here you need a license to ride a moped so delivery companies are switching to ebikes so everybody can ride them, regardless of age and license (and no expensive insurance) while still effortless going 25 km/h.