Technical comments only: car to car crash safety

[Sieper]

You could possibly make the chute deploy very quickly by inflating it like with an airbag. This would be done as soon as a collision with the barrier is unavoidable. But the alghoritms for that would be hard to program. Unintended deployments, yikes.

I agree with Izzy in that we need not say, oh well, just try and think up further improvement. Not draconical, but just try.

[notsofast]

It seems to me that the presence of the pit exit and the presence of the bouncy tyre wall combined to make the accident possible.

If you take away the pit exit, then you have the ability to take away the option to use the runoff area at full speed. (Others have already commented on solutions for preventing cars from returning to the track.)

[Jolle]

[
We are at a point now where not the strength of a structure is the issue, of course they can make a casing where that would withstand a impact with 300 km/h, but the acceleration (or deceleration) is what kills you. This is why Zanardi survived his t-bone, the force of the impact shattered his car and the back (with his torso) didn't suffer lethal acceleration. If he had a stronger cockpit, he would have had the same injury as Jules.

Drivers at the moment have, next to about 40cm of impact structure on the sides (for barriers) about an inch of foam around their legs. The tip of a car has also around 40 cm of impact structure, so in the worst case, you go from zero to 300 k/h in 42 cm.

Yes they have to manage the acceleration. But say the struck car ends up at a little under half the initial velocity of the striking car, at about 33 m/s - if they have 60 cm in nose deformation and 40 on the side, that's 1m of distance they have to spread the acceleration, which according to my elementary physics is about 112g. That's for the car, then there's some more movement possible for the driver within the car.

100G is not unsurvivable, for a very short period, at least not for everyone. According to this paper it's below the threshold of severe injury if the duration is less than .002s. Severe injury may not be fatal. And racing drivers are best-case for fitness.

So there's something for them to work on. They can take the side out to 50 cm. It's not a lost cause, is all i'm saying.

That 100G is the line for severe injury, such as ruptring aorta's and stuff... plus it's head on, not from the side, where seatbelts for instance doesn't give you any more room. At the moment there is no way to put, with this form factor, to put an extra 40 cm of impact structure next to the driver where another car will hit this. This structure should also work with a large range in weight, from just the survival cell with the driver (more or less what Hubert had) up to fully fuelled with all wheels, engine and body work.

[Shrieker]

1 second of warning in advance could've saved a life yesterday. We certainly have the technology to build a not so complicated automated crash warning system fed by g sensors or other means.

The cars are at the limit, not sure that 1 second of warning to a driver would do much more than give the driver time to swear in to his helmet.

one second at the speed of the impact yesterday is 80 meters of travel.

between when it goes wrong to impact is more around 0.2 seconds, 0.4 at best. The fastest a human can react on a visual warning is 0.2 seconds. at best.

Specific to this case I know, but Correa wasn't the first car to arrive at the scene iirc. I haven't looked, but it probably took more than a second for him to arrive at the crash site before things started unravelling at the front.

[Edax]

When you look at the footage you can see that Correa tried to brake but locked up the wheels, a good distance from the impact.

That got me thinking. I don’t know how many times I have seen cars sliding into things with four smoking wheels. Drivers have the reflexes. But getting that brake point exactly right, especially on the unfamiliar surface outside the track seems to be nearly impossible. And within a few meters they are skidding on a patch of canvas and steel.

ABS has been banned from the track for sporting reasons. Yet in this case I think it could have made a big impact. You can slow a formula car down a lot in 80 meters, when braking on the limit. Would not prevent a crash but at least soften the impact. Plus ABS would allow steering which is impossible when locked up.

What if you install a dormant ABS system on the car which is enabled at the moment the car is detected to be outside of the track limits? I don’t know the capability of the current track limit detection, but I think it should be possible. Just to give the driver a bit help when he needs it without interfering with the racing itself.

[Jolle]

You could possibly make the chute deploy very quickly by inflating it like with an airbag. This would be done as soon as a collision with the barrier is unavoidable. But the alghoritms for that would be hard to program. Unintended deployments, yikes.

I agree with Izzy in that we need not say, oh well, just try and think up further improvement. Not draconical, but just try.

You need a impressive AI to determine if a car is going to crash and what if there is already a car standing where the bags should deploy? Lets put all these active systems to the test at the last German GP, where several cars crashed or almost crashed at the same corner.

[Sieper]

Its just a brainstorm Session, why not think up Some ideas. It might inspire someone who actually does work in the field.

Hay bales, used tyre stacks, tecpro barriers, perhaps someday a next step.

[turbof1]

Yes, this is a brainstorming topic. It doesn't hurt to think of ideas on how to improve things. It's good to reflect.

One thing we don't know yet (and rightfully so, mind you) is exactly which specific fatal injuries Hubert got. That can be crucial for instance for internal padding.

I also believe his survival cell got ripped open. Now I do think it is fairly realistic to reinforce the survival cell and keep the integrity of it in such a crash. That will not help of course with G forces, but it will at the very least with preventing trauma and lacerations.

[Jolle]

Yes, this is a brainstorming topic. It doesn't hurt to think of ideas on how to improve things. It's good to reflect.

One thing we don't know yet (and rightfully so, mind you) is exactly which specific fatal injuries Hubert got. That can be crucial for instance for internal padding.

I also believe his survival cell got ripped open. Now I do think it is fairly realistic to reinforce the survival cell and keep the integrity of it in such a crash. That will not help of course with G forces, but it will at the very least with preventing trauma and lacerations.

To begin with a survival cell is key of course. Else every measure will have no effect.

The most important thing in crashes of this magnitude is time. To survive you need to get extra time to avoid, slow down or “crash longer” to sustain the impact. You get more time to widen all the distances. Longer and thicker crash structures, more foam and wider run offs.

[Sieper]

Wider run off here would offcourse help tremendously. Most of the ideas introduced here wouldn’t even be needed. Should indeed the survival cell not be intact anymore then also there further improvements should be introduced.

This might be off topic, but just like in road cycling (especially) I sometimes ask If we, the general public, do not ask to much of the racers. Ever faster and ever closer through dangerous places. Should not somebody put down the rule. Like FIA indeed did with the halo. I thought it ugly but more and better safety is needed.

[Singabule]

SPA safety only can be improved via reintrucing those troublesome chinace, the car simply too fast, incline too high, even if survival cell intact, no hope for human to survive the impact of 500 G.. Sad but true, we need slower car and not reliying too much on DF, install the Tecpro barrier and gravel instead of asphalt runoff hence you cant accerate outside the tracks.

[timbo]

Now I do think it is fairly realistic to reinforce the survival cell and keep the integrity of it in such a crash. That will not help of course with G forces, but it will at the very least with preventing trauma and lacerations.

Agreed. And on the subject of G-forces, I never understood why we have side impact structures like we have now. The "two horn" side impact structure IMO is only effective in a very limited range of impact angles and only when the hit is from a very particular object (flat and relatively wide).

[turbof1]

Now I do think it is fairly realistic to reinforce the survival cell and keep the integrity of it in such a crash. That will not help of course with G forces, but it will at the very least with preventing trauma and lacerations.

Agreed. And on the subject of G-forces, I never understood why we have side impact structures like we have now. The "two horn" side impact structure IMO is only effective in a very limited range of impact angles and only when the hit is from a very particular object (flat and relatively wide).

The structures are made out of nano tubes layered in such a way they are effective from every angle. Atleast according to the FIA.

[Just_a_fan]

They're only effective if they make contact with something, however. A nose from another car will fit between the current lateral crash tubes and so render them ineffective.

[turbof1]

They're only effective if they make contact with something, however. A nose from another car will fit between the current lateral crash tubes and so render them ineffective.

Quite true. There are certainly a lot of improvements to be made in side impact structure's shape, form and size. Maybe not immediately to the point of making a crash like Hubert's survivable, but less severe crashes for sure.