Breaking news, useful data or technical highlights or vehicles that are not meant to race. You can post commercial vehicle news or developments here.
Please post topics on racing variants in "other racing categories".
your position seems to be that the authorities are poisoning us and lying to us (in their mandating of 'safe' emission limits)
but you don't seem to have evidence of this
there's more poison in your tequila dosage than in the dosage from the public air supply
It´s the authorities who stablish toxic substances concentration limits wich are frequently exceeded on any big city when there´s no wind or rain, wich proves how toxic are ICE and heating systems fumes, so I´m not sure what are you talking about Tommy
people have been breathing natural CO for millions of years
there is a safe dose - even for 24/7 breathing
(yes that would be very low - but we don't breathe manmade CO 24/7)
each molecule of ingested CO can only usurp one molecule of O2
people have been breathing natural CO for millions of years
there is a safe dose - even for 24/7 breathing
(yes that would be very low - but we don't breathe manmade CO 24/7)
each molecule of ingested CO can only usurp one molecule of O2
We may discuss about concentrations wich is the key part with any substance
And also the reason for the EU legislation I linked, and is exceeded frequently. And I´m talking about Europe, not about China or India
CO bonds to your lungs and prevents O2 to enter your bloodstream. Even a bit of CO (like smoking) drops your O2 adaptation for quite a while. That's why a faulty gas boiler is so dangerous.
If we are going to discuss CO, let's do it right. There are two things wrong in the last posts (I am only sure of one).
1) City gas carrying 4% CO. I am willing to bet the house that this is not true, I'll research it later today. But to me that sounds orders of magnitude too high and too toxic.
Edit: I see now that with "town gas" Tommy did not mean the gas we use in towns, but a more specific product. So I take my point back. But, what exactly is "town gas" and what is it used for?
Edit #2: And indeed people were using this mixture (from coal) in cities when it had up to 10% CO. I stand corrected.
Gas used in towns is no longer made that way, though, I hope!
2) One molecule of CO displaces one molecule of O2. Not true, one molecule of CO binds to one molecule of hemoglobin... and stays there for a long time, preventing the binding of many, many O2 molecules. From wiki:
" Carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin at the same sites as oxygen, but approximately 210 times more tightly"
"COHb has a half-life in the blood of 4 to 6 hours"
That said, I don't thing CO is the main problem with ICEs nowadays. Not in even minimally ventilated places.
If we are going to discuss CO, let's do it right. There are two things wrong in the last posts (I am only sure of one).
1) City gas carrying 4% CO. I am willing to bet the house that this is not true, I'll research it later today. But to me that sounds orders of magnitude too high and too toxic.
2) One molecule of CO displaces one molecule of O2. Not true, one molecule of CO binds to one molecule of hemoglobin... and stays there for a long time, preventing the binding of many, many O2 molecules. From wiki:
" Carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin at the same sites as oxygen, but approximately 210 times more tightly"
"COHb has a half-life in the blood of 4 to 6 hours"
That said, I don't thing CO is the main problem with ICEs nowadays. Not in even minimally ventilated places.
True, it's indeed the blood that gets "poisoned", not the lungs themselves, my bad. 4% sounds very high indeed, sounds more like the CO2 levels.
ICE's are indeed pretty good in not producing CO anymore, at least less. Thats the reason why you can't kill yourself anymore with a modern car with a tube from the exhaust. "in the good old days" or carburettors you could get CO poisoning.
Thats the reason why you can't kill yourself anymore with a modern car with a tube from the exhaust. "
.
Thanks Jolle,, Been going to post that for a long time now but didn't want to start yet another argument.
Right now because of such improvements in the U.S. our emissions are now at levels lower than 1984.
The first emission control devices, EGRs etc cut CO2 emissions 90% every thing since then is to clean up the other 10%.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Thats the reason why you can't kill yourself anymore with a modern car with a tube from the exhaust. "
.
Thanks Jolle,, Been going to post that for a long time now but didn't want to start yet another argument.
Right now because of such improvements in the U.S. our emissions are now at levels lower than 1984.
The first emission control devices, EGRs etc cut CO2 emissions 90% every thing since then is to clean up the other 10%.
Well... CO and CO2 are not the same. CO2 use is still rising, not per car per see, CO2 is directly linked with the gas milage and cars are getting more economical, but we starting to use more cars, bigger cars. Even when we get all the toxins out, we still have H2O and CO2 coming out at the end.
Thats the reason why you can't kill yourself anymore with a modern car with a tube from the exhaust. "
.
Thanks Jolle,, Been going to post that for a long time now but didn't want to start yet another argument.
Right now because of such improvements in the U.S. our emissions are now at levels lower than 1984.
The first emission control devices, EGRs etc cut CO2 emissions 90% every thing since then is to clean up the other 10%.
Well... CO and CO2 are not the same. CO2 use is still rising, not per car per see, CO2 is directly linked with the gas milage and cars are getting more economical, but we starting to use more cars, bigger cars. Even when we get all the toxins out, we still have H2O and CO2 coming out at the end.
This.
Carbon monoxide and Carbon dioxide are very different things. Carbon dioxide is the bubbles in your beer, carbon monoxide kills many people each year.
Edit, well so does carbon dioxide but you know what I mean.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
I know what you mean as I'm sure you know what I meant.
The point we both were making is that they have made great strides in eliminating harmful emissions.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
Thats the reason why you can't kill yourself anymore with a modern car with a tube from the exhaust. "
.
Thanks Jolle,, Been going to post that for a long time now but didn't want to start yet another argument.
Right now because of such improvements in the U.S. our emissions are now at levels lower than 1984.
The first emission control devices, EGRs etc cut CO2 emissions 90% every thing since then is to clean up the other 10%.
...from transportation, wich is only 29% of total emissions, and for new vehicles compared to old ones. That´s very very different from cutting total emissions to 10% The effort to clean up is not to reduce that 10%, but the 71% of emissions wich comes from industry, electric generation
Anycase that´s a good trend. I wonder what do you think is the reason for that reduction if CC is just a lie from biased sources wich your president don´t buy
I know what you mean as I'm sure you know what I meant. http://www.stradsplace.com/photos/thumb.gif
The point we both were making is that they have made great strides in eliminating harmful emissions.
Fuel injection, catalytic converters and soot filters (together with regulations banning lead in fuel, CFK in fridges etc) helped a lot, but that is just one of the many changes we need to make. We’ve cured a cold while still dying of cancer.
The reason CO is more dangerous than CO2 is that our bodies have evolved to deal with CO2, not CO. CO2 is made naturally by the very processes that keep us alive. Our bodies remove it because it makes the body more acidic, resulting in life chemistry not working correctly. When we work hard and start to pant, that's not our bodies trying to get more oxygen, it's our bodies trying to get rid of CO2 from our blood in order to get the blood's pH back to the correct level. The proof? Even when working hard you don't use anywhere near all of the available oxygen in each breath, but the CO2 in your exhalations increases markedly.
The oxygen carrying molecule carries oxygen to our cells and CO2 away from our cells. That's how we have evolved. CO isn't naturally made in our bodies so the blood's chemistry isn't set up to deal with it. Hence why CO binds much more effectively and is harder to remove - the haemoglobin molecule isn't evolved to deal with CO.
Interesting thing about CO2 (and CO) is that breathing it in makes you breathe faster, because your body's response is the same as if the CO2 was produced in the body. The body doesn't know where the CO2 comes from so it pants it remove it. And that causes you to breathe in more of it and the cycle continues until you pass out and then die. That's why people die in building fires long before they get burnt - the products of combustion cause chemical asphyxiation. They also mess up the chemistry elsewhere in the body, e.g. HCN (hydrogen cyanide) prevents the production of ATP, which is the body's energy producing molecule, quickly leading to cell death.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
I think some of you are like one of our politicians that said the other day they wanted us to reach zero CO2 emissions. Which unless we quit breathing is impossible.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
I think some of you are like one of our politicians that said the other day they wanted us to reach zero CO2 emissions. Which unless we quit breathing is impossible.
If you stop breathing, you decompose and produce high levels.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
