2009 design concepts

[Scotracer]

I like everything on the 2009 cars apart from the rear wing. But I'll get used to that.

[casper]

Here's a CG rendering of the 2009 spec F1 car,
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ualxh4.jpg

F1fanatic.co.UK has a brief discussion on this topic
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/18/2 ... ings-tiny/

[Ogami musashi]

Here's a CG rendering of the 2009 spec F1 car,
http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ualxh4.jpg

F1fanatic.co.UK has a brief discussion on this topic
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/18/2 ... ings-tiny/

Hello,

Thanks for the Cg, we know it already though
This CG is from Smirkoff one member of this board and is dated back in august.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5697&p=80467&hilit= ... jpg#p80467

[Ogami musashi]

A preview of the F2009 car (to give an idea) taken from Autosport's forum (thanks AFCA).



i like the design but i really fear all cars will look the same!

[Scotracer]

You mean this one, Ogami? It appears your one was deleted.

[timbo]

That said, i fear that all cars will look the same next year..that sucks.

I also think so. All those fins and flip-ups were too delicate to simply copy one design on another car. With standart front wing center section I think there's optimal nosecone shape, and the main visible difference next year would be cooling setups.

[ISLAMATRON]

Yes they may all look very similar.

if that is the case I hope each team is required to give a very well detailed explaination of all their KERS componets & their operation.

[vasia]

The cars will look no more similar than this year. There will definitely be some teams with higher nosecones and some teams using lower nosecones. You also have to wonder about devices like Ferrari's nosecone hole.

Also everyone needs to remember that some teams will NOT start the season running KERS. Toyota seems to be one of those teams, and possibly Ferrari. Even Renault may not start the season with KERS.

Both Toyota and McLaren have hinted that when running a car with KERS, a different monocoque is required. That is logical as the KERS system takes up more physical space in the monocoque, requiring different placement of certain components, and requiring a different shape due to aerodynamics.

Teams can definitely design one monocoque that will run with KERS, or without, but that would not be the optimal strategy in terms of performance and aerodynamics. Specifically designing a monocoque for KERS, or not for KERS would be the more optimal, and also more expensive strategy.

So in other words, non-KERS cars I think will look visibly different to KERS-equipped cars.

Now that winglets, fins, and flip-ups will be gone, the suspension design of the car and even the mirrors will play vital importance to aerodynamics, since they essentially will be the only "fin type" devices controlling airflow around the car, excluding the front and rear wings.

Do not be surprised to see a wider variety of suspension and mirror designs, and obviously differences in cooling setups.

Also expect to see a bigger difference in engine cover designs, as that too will play a vital role in terms of aero at the rear of the cars.

[Ogami musashi]

The cars will look no more similar than this year. There will definitely be some teams with higher nosecones and some teams using lower nosecones.

Since the minimum height for the nosecone is 20cm and that as said before the central section is standard i don't think you'll see anything very varied.

You also have to wonder about devices like Ferrari's nosecone hole.

No need. The thing is banned.

Also everyone needs to remember that some teams will NOT start the season running KERS. Toyota seems to be one of those teams, and possibly Ferrari. Even Renault may not start the season with KERS.

Both Toyota and McLaren have hinted that when running a car with KERS, a different monocoque is required. That is logical as the KERS system takes up more physical space in the monocoque, requiring different placement of certain components, and requiring a different shape due to aerodynamics.

We talk about the cars in the full 2009 configuration.

Now that winglets, fins, and flip-ups will be gone, the suspension design of the car and even the mirrors will play vital importance to aerodynamics, since they essentially will be the only "fin type" devices controlling airflow around the car, excluding the front and rear wings.

Would be great but again the rules prevent them to be used like that.
I recall you that teams offer standard suspensions for 2010.

Do not be surprised to see a wider variety of suspension and mirror designs, and obviously differences in cooling setups.

I would be very surprised in fact. The cooling system are limited too since the sidepods have a minimum radius and tangent continuous curve requirements and that no holes except for exhaust are allowed.

Also expect to see a bigger difference in engine cover designs, as that too will play a vital role in terms of aero at the rear of the cars.

I think you should read the regulations first.You'll see everything is even more restricted that now.

Of course there'll be some development but teams already said the possibility of having cars very similar to the others really likely.

[ESPImperium]

From what i can gleen so far is that:

The RB4/STR3 shark fin is legal
The Ferarri Slotted Nose is legal
The McLaren/Toyota Anti Yaw device in the middle of the rear wing is legal (i think)
The Renault exaust sytem to heat the rear tyres is legal
The various styles of wheel fairings are legal

Thats all i can see so far, but i can see some teams looking into the grey and trying to incorperate some of the flip ups and what not into the "integral" design of the car, in result, they look like flip ups but they arnt.

But i think the cars will look sleek and streamlined next year, im shure we will see some things come 2 weeks time!!!

[vasia]

The cars will look no more similar than this year. There will definitely be some teams with higher nosecones and some teams using lower nosecones.

Since the minimum height for the nosecone is 20cm and that as said before the central section is standard i don't think you'll see anything very varied.

You also have to wonder about devices like Ferrari's nosecone hole.

No need. The thing is banned.

Also everyone needs to remember that some teams will NOT start the season running KERS. Toyota seems to be one of those teams, and possibly Ferrari. Even Renault may not start the season with KERS.

Both Toyota and McLaren have hinted that when running a car with KERS, a different monocoque is required. That is logical as the KERS system takes up more physical space in the monocoque, requiring different placement of certain components, and requiring a different shape due to aerodynamics.

We talk about the cars in the full 2009 configuration.

Now that winglets, fins, and flip-ups will be gone, the suspension design of the car and even the mirrors will play vital importance to aerodynamics, since they essentially will be the only "fin type" devices controlling airflow around the car, excluding the front and rear wings.

Would be great but again the rules prevent them to be used like that.
I recall you that teams offer standard suspensions for 2010.

Do not be surprised to see a wider variety of suspension and mirror designs, and obviously differences in cooling setups.

I would be very surprised in fact. The cooling system are limited too since the sidepods have a minimum radius and tangent continuous curve requirements and that no holes except for exhaust are allowed.

Also expect to see a bigger difference in engine cover designs, as that too will play a vital role in terms of aero at the rear of the cars.

I think you should read the regulations first.You'll see everything is even more restricted that now.

Of course there'll be some development but teams already said the possibility of having cars very similar to the others really likely.

There is no one value for both minimum and maximum nosecone height, which would be zero variation. That automatically means there will be SOME variation.

You talk about cars in full 2009 configuration, but I'm talking about reality not theory. The REALITY is some teams WILL NOT be running KERS until the middle of the 2009 season, and the reality is that non-KERS cars most likely WILL look different.

I think you should stop believing every word of the regulations so literally. I remember when the engine freeze came into effect, and everyone complained that the racing would become boring and engine developments would dissapear. Guess what, teams still found a way around the rules and still managed to develop their engines.

Regardless of what the rules say on paper, teams in 2009 WILL find ways to bend the rules, or to go around the rules in order to achieve a competitive advantage. It's always been like that in F1 and other forms of motorsport, and it always will be.

The more restrictive the FIA makes the rules, the more the FIA pushes teams to be more creative and imaginative about getting around the rules.

I can already picture teams defending controversial suspension designs by claiming the designs are fundumental to the car itself. I can picture teams creating complicated exhaust setups which re-route some of the exhaust air through more than one outlet/hole, and thus I can picture multiple holes in the cooling systems being explained as "exhaust outlets".

[boci]

From what i can gleen so far is that:

The RB4/STR3 shark fin is legal
The Ferarri Slotted Nose is legal
The McLaren/Toyota Anti Yaw device in the middle of the rear wing is legal (i think)
The Renault exaust sytem to heat the rear tyres is legal
The various styles of wheel fairings are legal

Thats all i can see so far, but i can see some teams looking into the grey and trying to incorperate some of the flip ups and what not into the "integral" design of the car, in result, they look like flip ups but they arnt.

But i think the cars will look sleek and streamlined next year, im shure we will see some things come 2 weeks time!!!

The rear wing is too high next year to work with the shark fin.

[timbo]

There is no one value for both minimum and maximum nosecone height, which would be zero variation. That automatically means there will be SOME variation.

SOME variation - maybe... As much as this year (look at Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, BMW...) nope. Central section is standart and a single profile. That means not much interaction with the nosecone and no need for slotted nosecone. I think we'll see something like later '90s - earlier '00s nosecones. Also, movable flap probably means that it would be something more conservatively shaped.

You talk about cars in full 2009 configuration, but I'm talking about reality not theory. The REALITY is some teams WILL NOT be running KERS until the middle of the 2009 season, and the reality is that non-KERS cars most likely WILL look different.

What difference you think KERS would have on the look of car? Bodywork regulation have no connection to KERS. There can be differences on engine cover, but all in all, some teams run KERS equipped cars and I haven't heard anyone saying that it had some profound effect on car appearance (well, BMW had boxy sidepods but that's all).

The reason why I think cars would look more similar to earch other is that a)fins shape was a great differentiator that would be absent b) car shape would be simpler that means there would be fewer local minimums in the opimisation space (it's like if you compare rocket to airplane).

And

[Ogami musashi]

From what i can gleen so far is that:

The RB4/STR3 shark fin is legal

Yes it is, the useness of it is unclear as the rear wing will be far higher.

The Ferarri Slotted Nose is legal

No it is not. Regulations state that no closed section may be contained into the nose area and in addition teams voted to ban the device for next year.

The McLaren/Toyota Anti Yaw device in the middle of the rear wing is legal (i think)

The wings are indeed the last parts were innovation scope will be present.

The Renault exaust sytem to heat the rear tyres is legal

No i don't think so. No apertures nor any sharp cornered device is allowed in this area.

The various styles of wheel fairings are legal

If you're looking down to wheel fairing to see differencies then i really reckon the looks of the cars will be similar.

Thats all i can see so far, but i can see some teams looking into the grey and trying to incorperate some of the flip ups and what not into the "integral" design of the car, in result, they look like flip ups but they arnt.

But i think the cars will look sleek and streamlined next year, im shure we will see some things come 2 weeks time!!!

For sure, but this time, the rules are done so that the progress reach their plate sooner.

There is no one value for both minimum and maximum nosecone height, which would be zero variation. That automatically means there will be SOME variation.

You didn't read the regulations correctly, you can't have a nose lower than 20cm above RP and higher than 35cm above RP.

This year, the nose can be as low as the RP and has no maximum height.

You talk about cars in full 2009 configuration, but I'm talking about reality not theory. The REALITY is some teams WILL NOT be running KERS until the middle of the 2009 season, and the reality is that non-KERS cars most likely WILL look different.

What is reality? talking about the first part of the season or talking about the longer term scope of innovation?

I think you should stop believing every word of the regulations so literally. I remember when the engine freeze came into effect, and everyone complained that the racing would become boring and engine developments would dissapear. Guess what, teams still found a way around the rules and still managed to develop their engines.

You confuse believing and reading. We did read the regulations and interpret them (see the topic "technical regulations 2009-2015"), when a regulation state things as clear as "any curve in this volume should have a minimum radius of 7,5cm" and be tangent continuous (meaning no sharp corners are allowed) this definitely cut 90% of the possibilities there.

See the actual illustrations by the teams themselves , they all look the same.

Regardless of what the rules say on paper, teams in 2009 WILL find ways to bend the rules, or to go around the rules in order to achieve a competitive advantage. It's always been like that in F1 and other forms of motorsport, and it always will be.

That reminds me of people telling the cars will always go faster and faster, only to find out the actual cars are 2 seconds (sometimes more) per lap slower than in 2004.



My point is not that nothing is left for innovation, simply that there's far less scope and so far teams think the same.

2008 cars already look far more similar than 1990 ones, where do you think it comes from?

[rjsa]

Hi Ogami,

I think so, they tend to look alike. And it's about processing power and over regulation I think. Teams are able to analyse too many options on how to drive in the thin lane provided by the rules. Copy and optimisation make the designs converge.

It's very unusual today for a team to develop a solution that others don't even try. Like the holy nose. I think no one bothered just because it wouldn't last for more than a year.

Ricardo