The curious case of Sebastian Vettel

[Just_a_fan]

One trick pony with a dead horse. In my humble opinion.

Bloddy good trick though wasn't it

I'm not that impressed, to be honest. The fact that he has failed to score a single win in competitive cars in more than one season shows the reality of his record. Winning in great cars is one thing, winning in good but not great cars is something else. He has done the former, failed to do the latter. That's why he's behind the likes of Alonso and Hamilton for me.

[Manoah2u]

Vettel, allthough not a bad driver at all, is overrated due to his winning spree with RBR.

He was hungry with RedBull, had a car tailored to his fit, and at that a car far ahead of the competition with many tricks.
Even back in the RBR days it was clear he cracked under pressure and wasn't all that.
When competition starts pressurising him, he has always ended up making silly mistakes and spinning.
It has nothing to do with a planted back or not. 2010 or 2012 was it? Button in Canada was a prime example,
Button wasnt even close to him at all, but was gaining fast, and that alone made him lose control.
He's a hothead that doesn't react well when things aren't his way.
Slamming into Hamilton for nothing (Baku),
Driving like a madman against Webber and blaming the Aussie.

That said, Webber was a good driver, but no means fantastic. And Vettel had his hands full and needed team orders.
I'd rate Vettel as a Rosberg+, so a bit higher. But that is really all. And bot Nico and Seb had dominating cars at hands.

the moment the cars weren't or aren't as dominating, they get squashed. Look how Seb has been beaten to a pulp by DannyRic.
And the only reason he outdid Kimi was because Kimi was not in his element and iirc even had back injury which required surgery.
Now, in his rookie year, Vettel has his hands full with LeClerc and gets beaten already.

Vettel had the benefit of having fantastic machines tailored to him and team orders on his side.
Now, he is 4 titles furhter on and as such, really doesn't have the same drive/motivation/hunger as back in his RBR 'roll'.
LeClerc has the hunger Vettel had back in 2009. DannyRic the same when he became teammember of Vettel at RBR.

Motivation plays a huge role.
Now, the results don't come in as much simply due to lesser motivation, and as such, errors are noticed more.

[rscsr]

...
the moment the cars weren't or aren't as dominating, they get squashed. Look how Seb has been beaten to a pulp by DannyRic.
And the only reason he outdid Kimi was because Kimi was not in his element and iirc even had back injury which required surgery.
Now, in his rookie year, Vettel has his hands full with LeClerc and gets beaten already.
...

Leclerc is no rookie.

[Manoah2u]

Rookie year with Ferrari, and he has driven only one year in Sauber. He is by definition a rookie, he is just a season further than Albon, but very much, a rookie.

[raymondu999]

As we always knew, Sebastian cannot adapt to cars with an unstable rear end.

Agreed

The other issue is he cannot deal with competition in similar cars.

Barring intra-team battles between 2 wdc-level (or potentially wdc-level) drivers I don’t think we can ever make any inference to similar-car-competition in F1 tbh

[PlatinumZealot]

Vettel, allthough not a bad driver at all, is overrated due to his winning spree with RBR.

He was hungry with RedBull, had a car tailored to his fit, and at that a car far ahead of the competition with many tricks.
Even back in the RBR days it was clear he cracked under pressure and wasn't all that.
When competition starts pressurising him, he has always ended up making silly mistakes and spinning.
It has nothing to do with a planted back or not. 2010 or 2012 was it? Button in Canada was a prime example,
Button wasnt even close to him at all, but was gaining fast, and that alone made him lose control.
He's a hothead that doesn't react well when things aren't his way.
Slamming into Hamilton for nothing (Baku),
Driving like a madman against Webber and blaming the Aussie.

That said, Webber was a good driver, but no means fantastic. And Vettel had his hands full and needed team orders.
I'd rate Vettel as a Rosberg+, so a bit higher. But that is really all. And bot Nico and Seb had dominating cars at hands.

the moment the cars weren't or aren't as dominating, they get squashed. Look how Seb has been beaten to a pulp by DannyRic.
And the only reason he outdid Kimi was because Kimi was not in his element and iirc even had back injury which required surgery.
Now, in his rookie year, Vettel has his hands full with LeClerc and gets beaten already.

Vettel had the benefit of having fantastic machines tailored to him and team orders on his side.
Now, he is 4 titles furhter on and as such, really doesn't have the same drive/motivation/hunger as back in his RBR 'roll'.
LeClerc has the hunger Vettel had back in 2009. DannyRic the same when he became teammember of Vettel at RBR.

Motivation plays a huge role.
Now, the results don't come in as much simply due to lesser motivation, and as such, errors are noticed more.

I actually rate Rosberg higher than him in pure speed and mental toughness. I think Vettel is a better overtaker though. Perez when asked, once said that Rosberg was the fastest German (at a time when they were five Germans on the grid). That sort of confirms to me that a lot of the drivers already knew that Vettel was not the best even in his RB days.

[El Scorchio]

I think both Hamilton and Alonso’s continuous recognition of each other and not Vettel as the best opposition on the grid at any point is also quite telling.

Hamilton at least outwardly shows Vettel a fair amount of respect. I don’t think Alonso ever really did. Some of that is probably sour grapes on his part though.

[Zynerji]

Everyone here gave the RBR cars credit for Seb's 4 WDC in a row, but now claim Hamilton's 4 are all him, and not the Merc chassis.

It's the fanbois of F1 Technical forums that are truly to blame for Sebastian's fading mental challenge!

[dtro]

I have no idea how hard it must be to compete at the level of F1 drivers. As disappointed as I get in Vettel, I understand that after a decade competing at the highest level in any sport takes a toll on a person. After a certain point someone like Hamilton, in a nigh-unstoppable Mercedes can drive at 95% and still beat 99% of the competition. Verstappen drove at 100% and would crash close to every other race, sometimes showing sparks of brilliance followed by cringe-inducing incidents in other races. For the last 20-ish races he's looked casual- only falling into old habits lately it seems, maybe because the chance of winning is binning the work he's done to calm down on track. Vettel on the other hand has driven that nigh-dominant RB, now he's driving in a good-but not perfectly suitable vehicle for him- probably needs to drive 99-100% percent of his ability to stay competitive. Mentally that is an insane ask- especially as you get older.

Part of me wants to see him retire, as I don't think he'll a. get the perfect car allowing him to drive below his threshold and win/out-qualify teammates b. he'll be able to drive at the limit with a car that doesn't suit him.

[Manoah2u]

Everyone here gave the RBR cars credit for Seb's 4 WDC in a row, but now claim Hamilton's 4 are all him, and not the Merc chassis.

It's the fanbois of F1 Technical forums that are truly to blame for Sebastian's fading mental challenge!

believe and accuse what you want. it's not the actual truth though.

[Zynerji]

Everyone here gave the RBR cars credit for Seb's 4 WDC in a row, but now claim Hamilton's 4 are all him, and not the Merc chassis.

It's the fanbois of F1 Technical forums that are truly to blame for Sebastian's fading mental challenge!

believe and accuse what you want. it's not the actual truth though.

It was sarcasm, and you fell for the meme.

[Fulcrum]

I think he's been in decline for at least 12 months.

Peak performance for most drivers is in their early 30's. Vettel is 32 so, while a touch early, a decline in ability (physical, mental) wouldn't be that surprising.

Raikkonen managed to outscore Vettel from the French GP to Brazil - a 13 race period - last year. While Vettel was the faster of the two, not by very large margins though, guess who made fewer mistakes? Raikkonen became more competitive as the contractual issues hotted up, at much the same time as Vettel became more error prone. The signing of Leclerc wasn't his desired outcome.

Now we see a continuation of the above, only with a younger, faster driver, who I believe knows a thing or two about playing political games as well. Leclerc is also more 'Italian', so its a forgone conclusion, IMO, that the team ultimately sides with him, especially now that the potential speed is being converted into race wins.

In addition to the above, there are a couple of indicators that suggest Vettel may move away from the sport sooner than anticipated.

Firstly, marriage and children, age, wealth. You can't undo these things. What was once interesting and exciting (travel, thrill seeking), becomes a hindrance. Focus shifts between priorities, with neither gaining the benefit of concentrated effort. His bank balance is fat, and he'll know when the calculus of making more money in that environment no longer makes sense.

Secondly, I've never seen his father attend as many races as he has this year. It could mean nothing, or have some significance.

I personally don't see him driving with another team, and whether he'd sign another contract with Ferrari, or they with him, also seems increasingly less likely. I wouldn't be surprised if he retired at the end of 2020.

[Manoah2u]

Everyone here gave the RBR cars credit for Seb's 4 WDC in a row, but now claim Hamilton's 4 are all him, and not the Merc chassis.

It's the fanbois of F1 Technical forums that are truly to blame for Sebastian's fading mental challenge!

believe and accuse what you want. it's not the actual truth though.

It was sarcasm, and you fell for the meme.

lol, went over my head then

[TheGkbrk]

I think both Hamilton and Alonso’s continuous recognition of each other and not Vettel as the best opposition on the grid at any point is also quite telling.

Hamilton at least outwardly shows Vettel a fair amount of respect. I don’t think Alonso ever really did. Some of that is probably sour grapes on his part though.

I think Fernando always knew he wasn't on that top level, that's why. That might be the reason Seb recently said that he never really thought Fernando ever liked him.
Saying Seb is overrated would be a bit harsh but I surely believe he is not at Fernando - Lewis level, two that can be named as the best of the post-Schumi era and would be placed on the all time bests list.
Seb is still a WDC level driver but the 4-times and his Red Bull days placed him higher than he actually is. I started to believe he is actually very close to the level of Rosberg which wasn't really considered as a very high level driver for years.
That mistake at Ascari last week was really amateurish, the most of his 2018-2019 mistakes.
Tier-1B level as someone said above would be suited I think.
I still respect him though, hope he will be back stronger.

[Andres125sx]

IMHO there are 3 driver categories in F1, the average, wich despite the definition are best drivers in planet as they reach F1 and none reach F1 without huge driving talent. Above F1 average, wich are drivers who can take a title with best car (Button, Rosberg, etc.) wich does imply beating his teammate. And finally those who can take or fight for the title even with a car wich is not the best, but obviously must be close. In this group IMHO there´s only one driver in current grid, Lewis, as Alonso (best driver since Schumacher) in no longer in the grid. Lecrerc and Verstappen might be part of this group, but they still need to prove it

I think second group is Vettel´s one despite his 4 titles. Button could have earn 4 titles if FIA kept that ruleset longer, but despite RBR era, they changed in-season to stop Brawn dominance. That´s the only reason Vettel won 4. Look at 2014, Ricciardo beated Vettel fair and square, same as Lecrerc lately.

No doubt Seb is one of the fastest out there, sure above F1 average (and that´s a huge praise), but he need best car to perform. IMHO past season Lewis or Alonso could have taken the title with Ferrari, Seb failed

But I still think he´s one of the fastest and probably one of a few who can fight Lewis is raw speed, only that he´s missing a lot of mental strenght and consistency. IMHO this is proving how big Alonso is/was, the only driver I´ve seen performing better than expected no matter if his car was one of the best or a dog, and specially the one who mastered the limit of his cars and never outdrive them, accepting if he can only be 10th, he´ll be 10th. Not even Senna mastered this at this level, crashing frequently when his car was not great and he tried to do more than possible