Nelson Piquet junior

[Metar]

Exactly my point - in a race with some retirements, 8th in the BMW wasn't too impressive.


Also, Nelsinho stays on board!

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Yes he(VETTLE) finished 8th in the 3rd best car(that means 5th or 6th position should have been his)... and that was only after Nico & Nick retired from ahead of him with mechanicals. It was effectively a 10th place finish in a car capable of 5th, not impressive at all in my eyes. And that was after being a well used friday driver.

And Bordais was beginning to get the better of him last this season... he will have a tough season against Webber next year for sure.

Vettel finished 8th in the 3rd best car meaning 5/6 should have been his. If this theory is correct why don't we see races results like:

1. Kimi
2. Felipe
3. Lewis
4. Kovi
5. Kubica
6. Heidfield...
...
...
...

It doesn't always work like that. Lewis was driving the second best car on the grid at Brazil but finished 5th, one or two places down on where he "should" have finished based on your theory...oh and behind Vettel in the 4th best car on the grid.

Basing assumptions on a drivers ability on an isolated incident is naive and short-sighted. Vettel this year has driven very well, and regularly impressed most onlookers, especially with his brilliant drive at Monza.

And on what basis did Bourdais start to get the better of him:
Some FACTS for you:

Italy - Vettel 1st, Bourdais 18th
Singapore - Vettel 5th, Bourdais 12th
Japan - Vettel 5th, Bourdais 10th
China - Vettel 9th, Bourdais 15th
Brazil - Vettel 4th, Bourdais 14th

At what point "Comming towards the end of last season" did Bourdais do anything LIKE get the better of Vettel. Practices & Quali I have not looked at for figures as they don't count towards a championship. (Its all well and good qualifying pole, but if you don't score points who cares)

Webber & DC had to deal with un under powered Renault engine most of the year but, supposedly, that was fixed by late 2008 (this plus n updated aero package was thought to be behind Renault's resurgance) But I was still to see those RBR cars really start to bother the STR or Vettel. (Yes they got closer but at no point did they actually beat him, while Renault's Nelson Piquet finshed ahead of Vettel att China this year) He's a huge talent, and while phycologically Webber might mess with Vettel, on track Vettel has more than enough talent to deal with the threat of his teammate next year.

[Metar]

Italy - Vettel 1st, Bourdais 18th

Bourdais' engine stalled after the warm-up lap.

[Miguel]

Spencifer, you and I know that Bourdais had race-affecting issues in at least four of the five races you posted. In Italy Bourdais' engine stalled, in Japan he was penalised by the Stewards, in China he was mercilessly hit by Trulli in Turn 1 and in Brazil he was again forced off track by Trulli when he was running three positions behind his teammate. None of this would have resulted in a clear defeat of Vettel, but it was much closer than it had been the rest of the year.

However, you do make a point, and that is why Vettel has impressed. It is the same that make us believe that Heikki has underperformed badly. Or that Kimi has underperformed. Following what one sees, the relative pace of the cars is established (note this is more or less known by the teams, who can evaluate the drivers better) and after that whether a driver has performed to the potential of the car is evaluated.

But we were talking about Piquet, so I apologise for mentioning Vettel first.

EDIT: One key point of Renault resurgence was the rear suspension introduced in Spa. Few people mention this, but look how the R28 was exiting slow corners in the last races of the year compared to Germany. It's like night and day.

[ISLAMATRON]

Basing assumptions on a drivers ability on an isolated incident is naive and short-sighted. Vettel this year has driven very well, and regularly impressed most onlookers, especially with his brilliant drive at Monza.

Looking at 1 isolated incident to rate a driver is foolish, we agree on that point. I mentioned his first race because others brought it up, In my eyes it wasnt as impressive a debut as other may belive, definatly not as impressive as MS or LH. I dont rate him based solely on that result, but what does impress me is that he is 2.5 years younger than the new world champion.

Vettle's win in Monza was not all that impressive to me, with LH & KIMI, the BMW's & Alonso starting relatively back in the pack and Heikki on the wrong setup he was the beneficiary of an upside down grid, kinda like Fisi winning in Austrailia 2005 or winning a sprint race in GP2. To be the best you have to beat the best. I wouldn't call his drive brilliant, but it was good and somewhat impressive. I look forward to his battle with Webber next year.

Bourdais has been matching Vettle in qualifying lately, but his races keep getting ruined by factors out of his control mostly.

I guess Piquet is thought so low of that he needs no mention in a thread about him.

[WhiteBlue]

I wonder what Islamatron will say when Vettel sits in a car equal to Hamilton's. I bet he will give him the run for his money. Vettel made his first F1point at the age of 19. I rate him extremely high and I do not think that any other driver of his experience would have won Monza with a fourth or fifth rated car. And that is what the Toro Rosso basically is.

[ISLAMATRON]

I wonder what Islamatron will say when Vettel sits in a car equal to Hamilton's. I bet he will give him the run for his money. Vettel made his first F1point at the age of 19. I rate him extremely high and I do not think that any other driver of his experience would have won Monza with a fourth or fifth rated car. And that is what the Toro Rosso basically is.

We shall see... we will see if he can match the extremely underrated Webber next year, this is the beauty of F1, crazier things have happened, Hamilton bettering 2XWDC Alonso, MAssa bettering WDC KIMI... lets just wait and see.

If he does then I will applaud the young man and think he should move up to a better team.

[andartop]

Vettel's win in Monza was nothing short of AMAZING in my eyes. I can't wait to see what 'll happen in Red Bull next year, what with MW being for me one of the best drivers in the field (though as lucky as a black cat named Thirteen) and Vettel one of the best newcomers in the sport.
As for Vettel vs Lewis, I'd put it the other way around, and be much more interested to see what LH would achieve in an underdog car against a driver like Vettel or Nico... I am a big fan of ALL drivers who achieve AMAZING things in a smaller team before moving up the field (ie Webber, Vettel, Alonso etc), not so much of drivers who join in straight into a top team and are awarded a God-like status when they achieve the obvious (ie You Know Who, JPM etc)..

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Italy - Vettel 1st, Bourdais 18th

Bourdais' engine stalled after the warm-up lap.

I take it that the rest of my post was to your liking then. Seeing as you only found one fault in the (addmittedly rather long) post. .

I do understand that happened metar, that's why I put "FACTS" in caps. To highlight that, when you look at the race results (because ultimately thats what matters if your going to be cynical - which sime empolyers can be) thats all that matters. Like Miguel pointed out, we all know that Bourdais had race effecting incidents happen to him in those last few races.

My point was that, looking at the facts, Bourdais did not even remotly come close to Vettel. There is a saying that you make your own luck. I'm not saying that its his fault his engine stalled at Monza, nor that its his fault Massa simply drove into him at Fuji when frankly he could have stayed wide. Juat that, take schumi as an example, I'm convinced he was half irish, as he's got the luck of the irish with him it seemed somethimes!

If you manage the race well you could avoid some of the incidents that effected Bourdais. You weren't happy with the facts poste before than how about this one:
In the latter half of the season (i.e GB GP onwards inclusive) Bourdais finished ahead of Vettel on 2 occasions...both when Vettel retired from the race. So over the course of the last half of the season Bourdais did nothing like get the better of Vettel.

I'm not on a hate mission against Bourdais, check the "2008 Rookies" thread...I'm a big supporter of his. I just feel that the idea Bourdais was getting the better of Vettel by the end of the season ludicrous.

Nelshino on the otherhand was a big dissapointment, but to drive a car so crap, against a guy like Alonso is a hard thing to do. It must have been totally demoralising for the guy.

[icef1mkd]

I could reply to Spencifer_Murphy here....

Bourdais outperformed Vettel in Spa and Fuji.
And in Valencia, Monza, China and Brazil he was there, close.

I'm counting since Valencia, where he had his break.
The period with the STR2B and the mid-season are seperate stories.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I could reply to Spencifer_Murphy here....

Bourdais outperformed Vettel in Spa and Fuji.

In what way? I'm not being sarcastic or nasty btw, I'm asking seriously, in what way did he outperform Vettel? I can't recall those races well enuff atm so you may have remembered something I clearly have'nt.

If he did outperform Vettel at those races, I guess that a measure of just how good Bourdais could be...he's a 4 time (i think, correct me if i'm wrong) champ car title holder. Now whatever view you have of champ car, 4 time champ requires some pretty good talent.

[icef1mkd]

Hello mate
On those venues Bourdais got the better of Vettel during the whole weekend. Well, just...in Spa up until the last lap, and in Fuji up until the stewards post-race penalty.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Oh okay, fair play.

Excuse me now, I have to get a towel to wipe some egg from my face...although I dunno how it got there I had originally planned on eating my words.