2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[Big Tea]

I honestly doubt there is a performance difference between the engines. It would be illegal and would be very risky for Renault to do if McLaren found out. Again, if McLaren found out, why would McLaren go about it so casually letting them have it and moving to Mercedes after a season and a half. Renault may be able to better utilize their engine or have their parts pass through a more rigorous QA process but I doubt they are giving less horse power.

My gut feeling is that Seidl is probably betting that Mercedes will end their F1 participation in the next 5-10 years.

Today there is a major issue if Mercedes pulls out and that is that their current customers are not capable of wins. It's unlikely they will challenge for wins in the near future. This means that Mercedes either needs to stay in F1 as a works team, or they need to accept having their engines in midfield cars. When McLaren gets Mercedes power, if they are able to fight for wins and podiums, this makes it possible for Mercedes to pull out as chassis manufacturer and still have their engines fight for wins.

Toto Wolff said that they wanted to have a more competitive customer team. This kind of statement is in allignment with Mercedes having more options for pullout if McLaren does OK. Seidl is probably well informed and can guess what the board of Mercedes might want to do down the line.

In the end, having Mercedes power will give McLaren a clear benchmark and remove any kind of potential excuses. Hopefully it will mean an power increase and reliability improvement, all of which will help them catch up to top 3.

They do not (by rule) have to have an equivalent performance engine, just the same spec and standard engine.

If there are 10 engines on the pre issue test bed, they can vary by several KW and be slightly finer balanced etc but be identical engines.

By picking the best 4 engines, best 4 electrical sets etc the end result can easily be that the factory team is substantially better than that issued to a customer even though they are 'identical in spec and detail'.

All within the rules and above board, but result in being well above the customer.

[SmallSoldier]

This is good for McLaren AND Mercedez at this time. Merc gets another team and another vote for direction of 2021 rule changes and this is probably more important to them and who knows what development path they have already been testing and wouldn't be surprised they are trying to have a leg up on others like they did in 2014.

From Mclaren's perspective, Renault did not have a good track record dealing with this hybrid change. Merc is a better bet to get it right in 2021. Of course no one can predict the future but it is safer to go with Merc during rule change rather than Renault.

The engines aren’t changing for 2021 as far as I understand.


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[Ground Effect]

I honestly doubt there is a performance difference between the engines. It would be illegal and would be very risky for Renault to do if McLaren found out. Again, if McLaren found out, why would McLaren go about it so casually letting them have it and moving to Mercedes after a season and a half. Renault may be able to better utilize their engine or have their parts pass through a more rigorous QA process but I doubt they are giving less horse power.

My gut feeling is that Seidl is probably betting that Mercedes will end their F1 participation in the next 5-10 years.

Today there is a major issue if Mercedes pulls out and that is that their current customers are not capable of wins. It's unlikely they will challenge for wins in the near future. This means that Mercedes either needs to stay in F1 as a works team, or they need to accept having their engines in midfield cars. When McLaren gets Mercedes power, if they are able to fight for wins and podiums, this makes it possible for Mercedes to pull out as chassis manufacturer and still have their engines fight for wins.

Toto Wolff said that they wanted to have a more competitive customer team. This kind of statement is in allignment with Mercedes having more options for pullout if McLaren does OK. Seidl is probably well informed and can guess what the board of Mercedes might want to do down the line.

In the end, having Mercedes power will give McLaren a clear benchmark and remove any kind of potential excuses. Hopefully it will mean an power increase and reliability improvement, all of which will help them catch up to top 3.

They do not (by rule) have to have an equivalent performance engine, just the same spec and standard engine.

If there are 10 engines on the pre issue test bed, they can vary by several KW and be slightly finer balanced etc but be identical engines.

By picking the best 4 engines, best 4 electrical sets etc the end result can easily be that the factory team is substantially better than that issued to a customer even though they are 'identical in spec and detail'.

All within the rules and above board, but result in being well above the customer.

The Technical Directive states:

"Whilst the dossiers for each team may be identical it would appear that some are being operated in a different way to others being supplied by the same manufacturer.

"It is therefore our view that all power units supplied by one manufacturer should be identical, not only in terms of the dossier for each team being the same, but we also feel they should be operated in an identical way.

"With this in mind, we will expect all power units supplied by the same manufacturer to be:

"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.

"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the following, they should be:

"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being operated in precisely the same way.

"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."

The optional aspect regarding fuel reflects that the fact that some customer teams may not use the same suppliers as the works cars.

[SmallSoldier]

I don’t think there are as many conspiracy theories behind the deal as most want to find... The deal is simply good business for everyone involved.

From a Mclaren perspective, the move to Renault was a positive one and Renault has made good progress with their engines, nevertheless there is also doubts that even Renault will stay in the sport for the long term.

The deal with Renault was for 2 years and they had to sign a new one for 2021, the options for Mclaren were either Renault or Mercedes given that Ferrari wouldn’t give them an engine and RBR would probably veto a Honda engine for Mclaren (I don’t think that the bad blood from the latest Honda-Mclaren saga would have been as big of an issue, since this is business and smart people leave their emotions behind if a deal makes sense)... Between Renault and Mercedes, I believe everyone would agree that Mercedes is more appealing.

From a Mercedes perspective, the deal also makes sense... They have one more revenue stream by selling engines to a 3rd team, Mclaren will probably (because it’s never a guarantee) perform better than the likes of Racing Point and Williams and because of the pedigree and history of Mclaren is an stronger brand to be associated with... Mclaren also brings additional exposure to the Mercedes brand which is another welcomed benefit of supplying Mclaren.

In addition, they are mitigating risks down the line... Honda still has to commit to the sport beyond 2020, if they would decide to pull out of the sport, the current 3 manufacturers would have to supply to Red Bull an STR... By supplying already 4 teams, Mercedes probably is safe of having to supply RBR in that scenario.

This is a great deal for both companies really, with not many downsides for either brand.


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[Jolle]

Also a nice (conspiracy) theory: With Alonso's history with Mercedes, they couldn't have made the switch back to Merc last year, but with Alonso out of the picture for 2021, a deal could be made again.

[JordanMugen]

To be honest i never really 'felt' the McLaren-Renault combo. It's not really a match imo. Mclaren-Mercedes seems much more fitting.

How so?

McLaren and Renault Sport/Alpine cars are much more analogous in driving philosophy than McLaren and Mercedes cars. Renault's Alpine A110 could almost be considered a cut-priced baby McLaren.

There was a very large clash in philosophy when the McLaren Mercedes SLS was built -- with neither party happy with the result. McLaren preferring more of a hardcore driver's car, Mercedes preferring more of an isolated luxury cruiser.

McLaren and Seidl probably see it as a win win situation

After all the incredible efforts of Renault Sport F1 in supplying utterly superb power units to McLaren, it is not a very nice way for McLaren to repay Renault.

Red Bull partnered with Renault for 12 seasons, yet McLaren are only willing to stick to the superb French engines for 3 seasons!?

[M840TR]

Irregardless of the facts that Renault knew about the Mercedes deal since Baku, Ricciardo's Mgu-K in Singapore only infinitesimally spiked from a violent curb hit or that the RS.19 prefers much lower wing angles than the Mcl34, by conventional journalistic standards alone - where even the most popular motorsports outlets like Autosport etc don't bear much scrutiny - how a fringe Spanish site like 'EXTRAConfidencial.com' came to be regarded as the paragon of credibility is beyond my understanding.

[Mattchu]

After all the incredible efforts of Renault Sport F1 in supplying utterly superb power units to McLaren, it is not a very nice way for McLaren to repay Renault.

You having a laugh, no one wants to work with Renault it seems, maybe Williams, if they still exist will use them in the future!

[Big Tea]

I honestly doubt there is a performance difference between the engines. It would be illegal and would be very risky for Renault to do if McLaren found out. Again, if McLaren found out, why would McLaren go about it so casually letting them have it and moving to Mercedes after a season and a half. Renault may be able to better utilize their engine or have their parts pass through a more rigorous QA process but I doubt they are giving less horse power.

My gut feeling is that Seidl is probably betting that Mercedes will end their F1 participation in the next 5-10 years.

Today there is a major issue if Mercedes pulls out and that is that their current customers are not capable of wins. It's unlikely they will challenge for wins in the near future. This means that Mercedes either needs to stay in F1 as a works team, or they need to accept having their engines in midfield cars. When McLaren gets Mercedes power, if they are able to fight for wins and podiums, this makes it possible for Mercedes to pull out as chassis manufacturer and still have their engines fight for wins.

Toto Wolff said that they wanted to have a more competitive customer team. This kind of statement is in allignment with Mercedes having more options for pullout if McLaren does OK. Seidl is probably well informed and can guess what the board of Mercedes might want to do down the line.

In the end, having Mercedes power will give McLaren a clear benchmark and remove any kind of potential excuses. Hopefully it will mean an power increase and reliability improvement, all of which will help them catch up to top 3.

They do not (by rule) have to have an equivalent performance engine, just the same spec and standard engine.

If there are 10 engines on the pre issue test bed, they can vary by several KW and be slightly finer balanced etc but be identical engines.

By picking the best 4 engines, best 4 electrical sets etc the end result can easily be that the factory team is substantially better than that issued to a customer even though they are 'identical in spec and detail'.

All within the rules and above board, but result in being well above the customer.

The Technical Directive states:

"Whilst the dossiers for each team may be identical it would appear that some are being operated in a different way to others being supplied by the same manufacturer.

"It is therefore our view that all power units supplied by one manufacturer should be identical, not only in terms of the dossier for each team being the same, but we also feel they should be operated in an identical way.

"With this in mind, we will expect all power units supplied by the same manufacturer to be:

"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.

"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the following, they should be:

"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being operated in precisely the same way.

"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."

The optional aspect regarding fuel reflects that the fact that some customer teams may not use the same suppliers as the works cars.

But they would be identical in every way. Some are more equal than others,it just is, not designed like that.

[SmallSoldier]

To be honest i never really 'felt' the McLaren-Renault combo. It's not really a match imo. Mclaren-Mercedes seems much more fitting.

How so?

McLaren and Renault Sport/Alpine cars are much more analogous in driving philosophy than McLaren and Mercedes cars. Renault's Alpine A110 could almost be considered a cut-priced baby McLaren.

There was a very large clash in philosophy when the McLaren Mercedes SLS was built -- with neither party happy with the result. McLaren preferring more of a hardcore driver's car, Mercedes preferring more of an isolated luxury cruiser.

McLaren and Seidl probably see it as a win win situation

After all the incredible efforts of Renault Sport F1 in supplying utterly superb power units to McLaren, it is not a very nice way for McLaren to repay Renault.

Red Bull partnered with Renault for 12 seasons, yet McLaren are only willing to stick to the superb French engines for 3 seasons!?

I don’t think they have a problem with Renault, but they prefer Mercedes... And that’s understandable.


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[Big Tea]

This is now completely out of my own mind, I have no reason to believe it other than we are 'doing conspiracy theories'.

Maybe Mclaren don't want reports of what they do on their car taken back to Renault?
You could say the same of Mercedies, but they are at least in front of Mclaren and not their closest competitor.

(stress, for CT only)

PS rumor Fry to Renault next year too

[SmallSoldier]

This is now completely out of my own mind, I have no reason to believe it other than we are 'doing conspiracy theories'.

Maybe Mclaren don't want reports of what they do on their car taken back to Renault?
You could say the same of Mercedies, but they are at least in front of Mclaren and not their closest competitor.

(stress, for CT only)

PS rumor Fry to Renault next year too

Could very well be... Based on today’s performance, Mclaren and Renault are very close together and the fight could easily have been closer... Is Mclaren avoiding some headaches down the road?

But regardless of those conspiracy theories, the reality is much easier to understand... Mercedes has been the best overall PU since the Hybrid era started, that’s considering not only power, but also reliability, durability, fuel consumption, etc... Today, Ferrari seems to have edge them in regards to power, but the speed difference seems more related to aero concept than outright power (reason why, the likes of Alfa and Haas aren’t leaving Racing Point in the dust... Same with Renault and Mclaren)... Why wouldn’t you want the best overall PU in your car if you can get access to it?... It isn’t like if Mercedes has stopped developing their PU or won’t do it down the road, so there is no reason to think that they won’t maintain their status as “one of, if not the best” PU in the grid.


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[Marc.W]

To be honest i never really 'felt' the McLaren-Renault combo. It's not really a match imo. Mclaren-Mercedes seems much more fitting.

How so?

McLaren and Renault Sport/Alpine cars are much more analogous in driving philosophy than McLaren and Mercedes cars. Renault's Alpine A110 could almost be considered a cut-priced baby McLaren.

There was a very large clash in philosophy when the McLaren Mercedes SLS was built -- with neither party happy with the result. McLaren preferring more of a hardcore driver's car, Mercedes preferring more of an isolated luxury cruiser.

McLaren and Seidl probably see it as a win win situation

After all the incredible efforts of Renault Sport F1 in supplying utterly superb power units to McLaren, it is not a very nice way for McLaren to repay Renault.

Red Bull partnered with Renault for 12 seasons, yet McLaren are only willing to stick to the superb French engines for 3 seasons!?

McLaren is a customer, they buy engines from Renault, unless they haven't paid any bills they don't have anything to "repay" to Renault, that's how business works, if you aren't happy with the product you find an alternative.

Switching to Mercedes doesn't show that the Renault PU is bad, just not what McLaren wanted, if it's to be believed that the Merc deal is saaving McLaren money then it's a no brainer.

[diffuser]

This is good for McLaren AND Mercedez at this time. Merc gets another team and another vote for direction of 2021 rule changes and this is probably more important to them and who knows what development path they have already been testing and wouldn't be surprised they are trying to have a leg up on others like they did in 2014.

From Mclaren's perspective, Renault did not have a good track record dealing with this hybrid change. Merc is a better bet to get it right in 2021. Of course no one can predict the future but it is safer to go with Merc during rule change rather than Renault.

The engines aren’t changing for 2021 as far as I understand.


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Agreed, the only thing left on the table is wether there will be a development freeze or not.

[diffuser]

To be honest i never really 'felt' the McLaren-Renault combo. It's not really a match imo. Mclaren-Mercedes seems much more fitting.

How so?

McLaren and Renault Sport/Alpine cars are much more analogous in driving philosophy than McLaren and Mercedes cars. Renault's Alpine A110 could almost be considered a cut-priced baby McLaren.

There was a very large clash in philosophy when the McLaren Mercedes SLS was built -- with neither party happy with the result. McLaren preferring more of a hardcore driver's car, Mercedes preferring more of an isolated luxury cruiser.

McLaren and Seidl probably see it as a win win situation

After all the incredible efforts of Renault Sport F1 in supplying utterly superb power units to McLaren, it is not a very nice way for McLaren to repay Renault.

Red Bull partnered with Renault for 12 seasons, yet McLaren are only willing to stick to the superb French engines for 3 seasons!?

McLaren is a customer, they buy engines from Renault, unless they haven't paid any bills they don't have anything to "repay" to Renault, that's how business works, if you aren't happy with the product you find an alternative.

Switching to Mercedes doesn't show that the Renault PU is bad, just not what McLaren wanted, if it's to be believed that the Merc deal is saaving McLaren money then it's a no brainer.

I think that eventually we'll go back to just 3 PU manufacturer.


R&D costs per PU drop when you're building PUs for 4 teams instead of Just 1 or 2. I don't see how Renault are gonna stay in it if they don't get the PU development freeze.

Wonder if merc could just spin off Ilmore as a stand alone F1 PU manufacture? I guess even at 4 teams ...they get what ?$10 Million per team for PU supply? Guess no way they could run it and keep R&D going with that. They probably need north of $150 million ?