The curious case of Sebastian Vettel

[PlatinumZealot]

The moderators are asleep it seems.

[NathanOlder]

Ham was on pole..

If Hamilton drove how ..

I thought this topic was about 'the curious case of Sebastian Vettel'.

Very true.

So with Vettel meeting with Binotto on monday, do we think Binotto was giving seb a slapped wrist? or telling seb not to worry about Charles and that Charles will be put in his place?

[digitalrurouni]

I don't get it what does Ferrari exactly want? Get closer to the WDC or the WCC or both? Wouldn't at this point in the game be focusing on getting as many 1-2s as possible and not give a crap about who is doing the winning as long as it's a 1-2? That would boost morale at the factory and bode well for next year's championship attack?

[lh13]

Your comments on Hamilton in China were total trash, so please do some research too buddy.

If Hamilton drove how you said he should in China, he would have needed to wait behind the pack right round to the end of the first sector (thats turn 6 to save you looking it up)

So you quoted me just to throw your own trash in the mix? Great, because what you said does not approve / disapprove anything.

Care to explain how it would have hurt Hamilton to wait behind the back till the end of first sector, especially with that powerful engine in the car?

[izzy]

I don't get it what does Ferrari exactly want? Get closer to the WDC or the WCC or both? Wouldn't at this point in the game be focusing on getting as many 1-2s as possible and not give a crap about who is doing the winning as long as it's a 1-2? That would boost morale at the factory and bode well for next year's championship attack?

i think Ferrari were doing their best. On paper it was all good wasn't it, just unluckily having to try and do it with racing drivers . in Monza they give each other a tow= both faster than otherwise. Except that the first guy has pole so he's not actually trying super hard to give it to the second guy! Then in Sochi they cooperate to deny Lewis the tow down to T1 and then swap back afterwards - simples! except that now the second guy is in the lead and he doesn't wanna help the first guy who let him down in Monza, and he can kid himself about it

Seb is obviously under a lot of pressure, and his teammate might not be quite as angelic as his cute face would suggest . Anyway the team took charge and swapped them so justice would've been done, until Seb's car broke

[digitalrurouni]

I don't get it what does Ferrari exactly want? Get closer to the WDC or the WCC or both? Wouldn't at this point in the game be focusing on getting as many 1-2s as possible and not give a crap about who is doing the winning as long as it's a 1-2? That would boost morale at the factory and bode well for next year's championship attack?

i think Ferrari were doing their best. On paper it was all good wasn't it, just unluckily having to try and do it with racing drivers . in Monza they give each other a tow= both faster than otherwise. Except that the first guy has pole so he's not actually trying super hard to give it to the second guy! Then in Sochi they cooperate to deny Lewis the tow down to T1 and then swap back afterwards - simples! except that now the second guy is in the lead and he doesn't wanna help the first guy who let him down in Monza, and he can kid himself about it

Seb is obviously under a lot of pressure, and his teammate might not be quite as angelic as his cute face would suggest . Anyway the team took charge and swapped them so justice would've been done, until Seb's car broke

I am agreeing with what you are saying but I was thinking this should have been the plan of attack for Sochi - Leclerc gives tow. If Vettel gets past Leclerc swap in pit strategy. No radio messages and bickering. Done. There was a pre-race agreement and it gets respected. These are F1 drivers for god's sake. They care about winning and that's what they are PAID to do. Of course they will try to one up their teammate. That's the first person you race against! It just seems like Ferrari finds a way to botch things up always

[izzy]

I am agreeing with what you are saying but I was thinking this should have been the plan of attack for Sochi - Leclerc gives tow. If Vettel gets past Leclerc swap in pit strategy. No radio messages and bickering. Done. There was a pre-race agreement and it gets respected. These are F1 drivers for god's sake. They care about winning and that's what they are PAID to do. Of course they will try to one up their teammate. That's the first person you race against! It just seems like Ferrari finds a way to botch things up always

yes true, perhaps only Lewis and Valtteri can do this stuff, tho would Seb sign up to being second after the one and only pitstop? that's race over for him really, but in front with only 1 lap undercut he could survive with that gap he built. Of course he might not have had a vote! But if the agreement was made at the start of the weekend, perhaps he'd have sacrificed his race setup for a qualy setup? Then they might both have burned through their tyres, been passed by Mercedes, and Ferrari could've ended up losing the weekend through infighting (instead of reliability)

but teams underestimate the consequences when they let things go don't they, they give the naughty driver a telling off and think that's it, but generally the other guy gets even. The mistake was probably back in Bahrain when they gave the wrong order so then when Charles disobeyed it there was nothing they could do, but there was the precedent and oh team orders are optional, and again when they forgave him in Monza

[digitalrurouni]

I am agreeing with what you are saying but I was thinking this should have been the plan of attack for Sochi - Leclerc gives tow. If Vettel gets past Leclerc swap in pit strategy. No radio messages and bickering. Done. There was a pre-race agreement and it gets respected. These are F1 drivers for god's sake. They care about winning and that's what they are PAID to do. Of course they will try to one up their teammate. That's the first person you race against! It just seems like Ferrari finds a way to botch things up always

yes true, perhaps only Lewis and Valtteri can do this stuff, tho would Seb sign up to being second after the one and only pitstop? that's race over for him really, but in front with only 1 lap undercut he could survive with that gap he built. Of course he might not have had a vote! But if the agreement was made at the start of the weekend, perhaps he'd have sacrificed his race setup for a qualy setup? Then they might both have burned through their tyres, been passed by Mercedes, and Ferrari could've ended up losing the weekend through infighting (instead of reliability)

but teams underestimate the consequences when they let things go don't they, they give the naughty driver a telling off and think that's it, but generally the other guy gets even. The mistake was probably back in Bahrain when they gave the wrong order so then when Charles disobeyed it there was nothing they could do, but there was the precedent and oh team orders are optional, and again when they forgave him in Monza

Yeah agreed but I am a fan of not airing my dirty laundry out in public lol. Ferrari had the right idea but the execution was poooooor! Sure Vettel would have been miffed at being undercut at the pitstop but hey remind him of Singapore!

[NL_Fer]

I find Nico Rosberg thoughts about Sochi very interresting. Since we will never know what was exactly said during the Ferrari pre-race briefing, the estimates by Nico about, how it went, gives a better understanding why Vettel handled it how he did, this weekend.

https://youtu.be/9dkwaNYddvc

In short:

Vettel was not explicitly for forbidden to overtake Charles.
It is also really hard to include very possibility, in which Vettel is or is not allowed to overtake.
Like if Charles has a bad start, how bad must it be, before Vettel could overtake him, almost impossible.
There was room for interpretation, and a drivers natural choice is to interpretate in the most positive way for the driver himself.

In case of Sochi: Hamilton was denied the slipstream. Ferrari was 1-2, all the instructions has been executed, was Vettels interpretation.

[Edax]

I think these kind of strategic games are counterproductive. The winner of a race is the one that completes x laps in the minimal amount of time.

The fastest time for a race is a single point solution given by fuel, tires, driver ability and traffic. What we call “strategy” in reality is putting a set of constraints that, in pursuit of a tactical goal, prevent a driver from reaching that optimal solution. When a strategic call is made other than removing a driver from traffic, it slows a driver down, it can’t make him faster because he is already driving at 99.9% of his ability.

When both drivers are in clear air and closing on the finish, you can think of making calls to preserve material or to prevent drivers taking unnecessary risks to chase and overtake on each other. But before that it should all be about getting to that point the fastest, which gives the best shot at being faster than everyone else.

I really have the feeling that Ferrari here are sacrificing team performance in order to appease drivers ego’s.

[izzy]

Yeah agreed but I am a fan of not airing my dirty laundry out in public lol. Ferrari had the right idea but the execution was poooooor! Sure Vettel would have been miffed at being undercut at the pitstop but hey remind him of Singapore!

i quite enjoy it personally

still, while it's a bit of a mess, Mercedes have been the worst: in Monaco 2014 they had the tyre load data showing Rosberg could have made the corner, but they defended him and left him with the points. Red Bull had their No2 Driver thing and lost Danny with defending Max in Baku didn't they, and how much has that cost them? McLaren obviously in 2007, nightmare... and so far Seb and Charles haven't collided at least

but they both know they can defy team orders and get away with it, depending, tho yes as you kinda say Seb knows he's needed a bit of a pity pitstop in Singapore to prop us his morale, that can't feel good

[Just_a_fan]

I don't get it what does Ferrari exactly want? Get closer to the WDC or the WCC or both? Wouldn't at this point in the game be focusing on getting as many 1-2s as possible and not give a crap about who is doing the winning as long as it's a 1-2? That would boost morale at the factory and bode well for next year's championship attack?

1-2s at this stage would be great the team. Going on, I think they are happier to win the driver title over the constructor title. Why? Because people remember the driver champions but not the constructor champions. Well, the team fans to, obviously but others? Not so much.

[digitalrurouni]

Yeah agreed but I am a fan of not airing my dirty laundry out in public lol. Ferrari had the right idea but the execution was poooooor! Sure Vettel would have been miffed at being undercut at the pitstop but hey remind him of Singapore!

i quite enjoy it personally

still, while it's a bit of a mess, Mercedes have been the worst: in Monaco 2014 they had the tyre load data showing Rosberg could have made the corner, but they defended him and left him with the points. Red Bull had their No2 Driver thing and lost Danny with defending Max in Baku didn't they, and how much has that cost them? McLaren obviously in 2007, nightmare... and so far Seb and Charles haven't collided at least

but they both know they can defy team orders and get away with it, depending, tho yes as you kinda say Seb knows he's needed a bit of a pity pitstop in Singapore to prop us his morale, that can't feel good

Lol yeah agreed. While I'm not a fan of airing my own dirty laundry I didn't say I didn't enjoy watching others blunder lol.

Interesting point you do bring up about Red Bull. I do agree it has hurt them which is exactly what a tram like Ferrari should really realize. They need both their drivers operating like Mercedes. I could be wrong but at the beginning of the year Mercedes doesn't do anything about their drivers that is they let them race as long as it's clean and then mid season you can start to see they start hedging their bets because a clear pattern usually emerges as to who's leading and has a better chance at the title. Then as the season is on its final leg full on wingman mode. Of course they're not perfect. Neither do I claim that but if I were to sum up their strategy that's the pattern. I quite like that to be honest. Bottas 2.0 was given all the chances and now he's a wingman because of a resurgent Ferrari having brought their 2020 upgrades forward from what I've been reading. Ferrari really should take a leaf out of that book.

[digitalrurouni]

I don't get it what does Ferrari exactly want? Get closer to the WDC or the WCC or both? Wouldn't at this point in the game be focusing on getting as many 1-2s as possible and not give a crap about who is doing the winning as long as it's a 1-2? That would boost morale at the factory and bode well for next year's championship attack?

1-2s at this stage would be great the team. Going on, I think they are happier to win the driver title over the constructor title. Why? Because people remember the driver champions but not the constructor champions. Well, the team fans to, obviously but others? Not so much.

I agree but personally if I was a team manager operating at their level I would say the WCC is most important because it forces both drivers to maximize points for the team. If they do that don't they automatically help themselves along in the driver's championship as well because it's those points that add up for the individual points chase to be driver's champion.

[izzy]

Lol yeah agreed. While I'm not a fan of airing my own dirty laundry I didn't say I didn't enjoy watching others blunder lol.

Interesting point you do bring up about Red Bull. I do agree it has hurt them which is exactly what a tram like Ferrari should really realize. They need both their drivers operating like Mercedes. I could be wrong but at the beginning of the year Mercedes doesn't do anything about their drivers that is they let them race as long as it's clean and then mid season you can start to see they start hedging their bets because a clear pattern usually emerges as to who's leading and has a better chance at the title. Then as the season is on its final leg full on wingman mode. Of course they're not perfect. Neither do I claim that but if I were to sum up their strategy that's the pattern. I quite like that to be honest. Bottas 2.0 was given all the chances and now he's a wingman because of a resurgent Ferrari having brought their 2020 upgrades forward from what I've been reading. Ferrari really should take a leaf out of that book.

i thought Baku last year and Valtteri and how it affected him showed how difficult it all is. He obviously was a wingman already but doing that and making it so clear really hit his morale and confidence and pace. I thought it was a mistake at the time and although it was logical as you say it had a cost.

So i can understand Mattia gifting Seb a race to boost him, and trying to manage things, but they let Charles defy them in Bahrain and so obviously he's carried on and Seb has smelled the same coffee and now it's all a struggle with both drivers telling the team to spin on it when it doesn't suit them, with Toto chortling in the bushes about 2 alphas but if he had 2 alphas (sorry Valtteri!!!) i don't think he'd be doing any better, remembering the Rosberg fiascos, Spa, Spain and Austria etc and then finally doing a runner leaving Toto totally up a creek sans paddle