Changes To Qualifying

[henry]

Incidentally. This idea that they are trying to penalise the fastest driver is to my mind wrong headed.

If they were intending that it be applied to one race only then it would be a punitive measure. But if it’s applied across the season everyone gets an equal chance at leading the championship and starting last.

[izzy]

Incidentally. This idea that they are trying to penalise the fastest driver is to my mind wrong headed.

If they were intending that it be applied to one race only then it would be a punitive measure. But if it’s applied across the season everyone gets an equal chance at leading the championship and starting last.

yes it's weird some people don't get it. You'd have thought Max would love an overtaking contest! Perhaps it's an intuition thing, that for some people it just makes sense automatically and for other people it doesn't. there's one person i know who doesn't get it and I must admit i find it hard to explain, like in maths terms or logic

[dans79]

But if it’s applied across the season everyone gets an equal chance at leading the championship and starting last.

Only in a completely idealistic world does that actually work! in the real world far too many other factors have the potential to scre* someone over. For example being taken out passing kmag, or being stuck in the back at a track that's hard to pass on, etc etc etc.

[Zynerji]

Might as well just scrap Q, and lottery draw.

I'd rather keep current Q, just scrap the Parc Ferme rule to allow full Q and Race specific setups instead of the race/Q compromises that we have now.

[henry]

But if it’s applied across the season everyone gets an equal chance at leading the championship and starting last.

Only in a completely idealistic world does that actually work! in the real world far too many other factors have the potential to scre* someone over. For example being taken out passing kmag, or being stuck in the back at a track that's hard to pass on, etc etc etc.

Those factors apply right now to those competitors who don’t have the good fortune to be in the fastest car(s). The have nots have to continually demonstrate a whole set of skills the haves only occasionally show.

I agree that there are factors which would make reverse grid races less feasible. The track configuration is one. The enormous size and speed of the cars is another, less so than the tracks but they do make racing difficult right now so that wouldn’t change.

The cars could be changed, in fact they are. The tracks are less amenable to change.

Perhaps a half way house would allow for the current track mix. Evaluate the overtaking potential of each track, rank them and then run half the weekends as time trials and the other as races. That would be a fascinating engineering, driving and operational challenge.

[izzy]

Perhaps you don't get it because of cultural differences. Since you use the term "maths", I'm going to assume you're British because here in the states we call it math.

Where I'm from it doesn't matter if it's for a single event or an entire season. If you tell someone you're going to penalize them in some fashion just because they are better than their competitors you're going to have and unhappy, and potentially hostile individual on your hands.

lol there aren't any cultural differences, here in our cozy western democracies, it doesn't penalise them is all. People get past Kmag all the time, then you do understand how it works after all? Secretly!!! They only start at the back on Saturday if they're in the lead, and they only stay in the lead if they do lots of overtaking. Every weekend the worst overtaker/car will start at the front and get passed a lot. Gradually the best overtaker will gather the most points. Charles, Max, Seb and Lewis will spend most of the season together, having a racing contest. Racing, as opposed to lapping. You know it makes sense (i think)

[dans79]

They only start at the back on Saturday if they're in the lead, and they only stay in the lead if they do lots of overtaking.

So yes, the better you are the more you penalize them. if they are really good at overtaking, or have a really good car you continually penalize them for the sake of the show for the unwashed masses.

[turbof1]

Ok guys,

I just can't believe what I am seeing here. Arguments about the cultural implications of 'math' versus 'maths'? Did I just read that? Are you guys effing serious?

I'm not wagering into the argument pro and contra about reverse grids. My opinion is not interesting to anybody here. However, I will shut this topic down if more arguments about cultural differences come into play when there is absolutely no reason to, not in the least if these are being assumed from spelling a word one character differently.

You have been warned.

[theblackangus]

So yes, the better you are the more you penalize them. if they are really good at overtaking, or have a really good car you continually penalize them for the sake of the show for the unwashed masses.

To play devils advocate for a moment....
Having a reverse grid provides a mechanism that helps level the playing field were a few teams out spend everyone else by a wide margin to win. The talk of cost caps is largely fluff as it is very hard to regulate, if there was a mechanism that helped level the playing field while still encouraging individual car design I think that would go along way toward getting better racing. (Not saying reverse grids is the best mechanism, but it would mix things up a bit)

By allowing unlimited spending you are simply penalizing teams w/o endless resources all the time. F1 is an engineering competition as well, and the teams with small budgets (Crazy to call 100m small) get screwed all the time as they never get a chance to start at the front, because someone spent 200m + more than they did. If that keeps going on there will be less and less teams that can get sponsorship to make the money and stay on the grid and they will just fall further and further behind.

I would love to get a chance to see the top teams have to fight their way through other cars, and really show how good of racing skills these guys have.

Too bad we don't have some non-championship races to try some variations out.

[henry]

They only start at the back on Saturday if they're in the lead, and they only stay in the lead if they do lots of overtaking.

So yes, the better you are the more you penalize them. if they are really good at overtaking, or have a really good car you continually penalize them for the sake of the show for the unwashed masses.

It’s not a penalty, it’s an opportunity. It’s a different way of deciding who is best. You won’t know if they are really good at overtaking or have a fast car unless you test it.

There are many ways in which it might be a success or failure.

There is a distinct possibility that when the rich teams have spent millions on mathematicians and run all their simulations that they decide they want to finish sixth for most of the season. The whole optimisation thing is a handicap to entertaining racing under any format.

Another failure mode is that there would be many who have an emotional attachment to the status quo and an emotional concept of fairness. They are unlikely to be persuaded by rational argument, or even demonstration. Imagine the furore if a new scheme were brought in just as a favourite driver were about to break the record for most 3rds in qualification by a left hander.

I don’t think this is going to happen, at least not in any radical way, I just thought it an interesting concept to discuss. I just feel that we might get half way through 2021 to discover that the difficulty of cars re-sorting themselves into speed order on Sunday after an anomalous Saturday will be removed. And it’s those anomalies that provide the most interest.

[foxmulder_ms]

Qualifying is *perfect*.

Only thing you *may* do is to give points to top 3. But very small like 3,2,1 points. Nothing should be changed otherwise.

[dans79]

There is a distinct possibility that when the rich teams have spent millions on mathematicians and run all their simulations that they decide they want to finish sixth for most of the season. The whole optimisation thing is a handicap to entertaining racing under any format.

Honestly, I don't see what isn't currently entertaining already, other than it doesn't have NASCAR levels of meaningless passes.

it seems like their is a lust of instant and constant gratification among the fanbase now. People don't seem to have the attention span needed to watch and enjoy something like Hungary this year unfold. Instead the prefer this.

Imagine the furore if a new scheme were brought in just as a favourite driver were about to break the record for most 3rds in qualification by a left hander.

You mean like what we have now where people are constantly whining for rule changes because their driver or team of preference isn't winning enough for their taste?

[turbof1]

I agree reversing the grid would be an overreaction to a problem that actually seems to be solved for the moment. F1 is quite competitive the last few races and it gives more than enough decent racing that we for now don't need something radical to spice things up.

It would be nice to have reverse grids for a second sprint race which is not part of the official championship. It would definitely throw a lot of monkey wrenches in race strategy too. I just don't find it fit or fair for what we have now on the table.

[dans79]

It would be nice to have reverse grids for a second sprint race which is not part of the official championship. It would definitely throw a lot of monkey wrenches in race strategy too. I just don't find it fit or fair for what we have now on the table.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd have no problem with an f2 style race where points are awarded, but only the front 8 are reversed. However, A complete grid reverse order race with the actual race starting order on the line, is a recipe for a demolition derby in my opinion.

[NL_Fer]

I like a few overtake races in a season, not all of them though.

And i still believe the amount of overtakes would decide the start position.