Evolution and limit of battery energy density

[Andres125sx]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

[AJI]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

Apparently the charging infrastructure is huge for the current set-up. They ostensibly bring their own power station to charge the cars. Leave it all at home, bring 1 charged battery that will get you through the whole meeting. Less shipping for a better co2 footprint.
Hell, make the cars 500kW for better racing and with a weight reduction we might even see Lewis quit F1 for FE!

[FW17]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

250 Kgs??



The Williams Adaptive Multi-Chem battery pack is still 383 kgs for 60kwh

[AJI]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

250 Kgs??

https://cdn1.wattev2buy.com/wp-content/ ... nsions.png

The Williams Adaptive Multi-Chem battery pack is still 383 kgs for 60kwh

AlAir for the formula E win!

[Andres125sx]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

250 Kgs??

https://cdn1.wattev2buy.com/wp-content/ ... nsions.png

The Williams Adaptive Multi-Chem battery pack is still 383 kgs for 60kwh

Much better then, instead of 160kg saving it will be 260kg, so cars will go from 900kg to 640 with double the energy

[mzso]

Not sure what you mean with viable energy cost wise, energy used is electricity, wich can be 100% renewable, and even if not they will need a lot less energy than any ICE aircraft as efficiency is much much better on electric motors

Electricity, renewable or not doesn't magically appear in batteries. It's costly.
Any flying machine will cost multiple times the energy of a car. Especially flying cars with several small rotors.

Maybe the baseless statement is yours sir. Most difficult part of an autonomous car is how to detect/prevent/dodge any unexpected problem, from cars turning when they shouldn´t to pedestrians invading the road. Many people claim human intuition can´t be replaced to prevent these situations, but intuition is only needed when you can´t know what any other vehicle or person will do, if the only objects around are aircrafts with transponders telling anyone their route autonomous control becomes quite simple as nothing unexpected will happen contrary to what happens daily at any road.

As I stated earlier I´m assuming L5 autonomous crafts with no posibility for manual flying as I think that´s the only chance for these crafts to be viable for anyone

Unless some don't play by the rules. It makes it ripe for abuse and attacks.

[mzso]

Indeed, quite expensive


But it open up the possibility for electric planes, which is not possible with current LiIon batteries as they're too heavy

That is certainly true, and something I didn't even consider. afaik about 200Wh/kg for LiPo vs 1300Wh/kg for AlAir.

If we assume that those AlAir batteries consist 100% of Aluminium weight wise, and we can use it fully, and Aluminium costs about 2.2USD/kg (which I would assume will increase in the short term because the productioncosts, even from scrap, are mainly due to the used energy). Then even theoretical 2000Wh/kg would mean 1.1USD/kWh. And the electrolytes and packaging would only increase the costs. Probably to 3USD/kWh most likely to more.
The lowest priced LiPo seem to cost about 70USD/kWh.
So I pretty much doubt that AlAir has any place in the automotive space. Maybe as a spare charge it would be feasible.
And of course as you said, for flying operations.

But you'd need to buy new batteries as soon as they're depleted... Not at all viable.
For a practical electric aircraft I can only imagine fuel cell power.

[mzso]

That´s actually a pretty good idea, FE batteries weight around 250kg, imagine if they´re a third of that so cars are 160kg lighter (from 900kg to 740kg) but they still last twice longer and obviously with much faster cars

250 Kgs??

https://cdn1.wattev2buy.com/wp-content/ ... nsions.png

The Williams Adaptive Multi-Chem battery pack is still 383 kgs for 60kwh

AlAir for the formula E win!

Primary batteries are not compatible with FE. Use once than throw it away...

[AJI]

Primary batteries are not compatible with FE. Use once than throw it away...

Or recycle... I'm assuming the savings in not bringing a powerstation to every track will offset the battery recycling?

[rscsr]

Primary batteries are not compatible with FE. Use once than throw it away...

Or recycle... I'm assuming the savings in not bringing a powerstation to every track will offset the battery recycling?

At first I thought that those cells are a joke, but in those cells Aluminium is converted to Al(OH)3. This is essentially the state of raw Aluminium before the Bayer process but doesn't produce Red Mud. Papers suggest that you need about 70GJ/t to produce pure Aluminium from Al(OH)3 (compared to about 2GJ/t for remelting Al)
This means you need 70MJ/kg = 19kWh/kg to recycle the Aluminium from an Al/Air battery.
This suggests that you have a "recharging" efficiency of probably less than 10% (since such a battery currently stores about 1.3kWh per kg battery). So I don't think that there will be a time where such a battery is viable for daily use, but this doesn't matter for "entertainment" like racing.

[Andres125sx]

Not sure what you mean with viable energy cost wise, energy used is electricity, wich can be 100% renewable, and even if not they will need a lot less energy than any ICE aircraft as efficiency is much much better on electric motors

Electricity, renewable or not doesn't magically appear in batteries. It's costly.

True. Do you say the same about combustion aircrafts? Because they need several orders of magnitude more energy as ICE are not even a half efficient compared to electric motors

Any flying machine will cost multiple times the energy of a car. Especially flying cars with several small rotors.

Maybe the baseless statement is yours sir. Most difficult part of an autonomous car is how to detect/prevent/dodge any unexpected problem, from cars turning when they shouldn´t to pedestrians invading the road. Many people claim human intuition can´t be replaced to prevent these situations, but intuition is only needed when you can´t know what any other vehicle or person will do, if the only objects around are aircrafts with transponders telling anyone their route autonomous control becomes quite simple as nothing unexpected will happen contrary to what happens daily at any road.

As I stated earlier I´m assuming L5 autonomous crafts with no posibility for manual flying as I think that´s the only chance for these crafts to be viable for anyone

Unless some don't play by the rules. It makes it ripe for abuse and attacks.

Same as any car or truck, except if it´s a real L5 as I stated there´re no controls into the cockpit so it will be difficult to not play by the rules, much more than any car or truck you see daily on the roads

[Just_a_fan]

Not sure what you mean with viable energy cost wise, energy used is electricity, wich can be 100% renewable, and even if not they will need a lot less energy than any ICE aircraft as efficiency is much much better on electric motors

Electricity, renewable or not doesn't magically appear in batteries. It's costly.

True. Do you say the same about combustion aircrafts? Because they need several orders of magnitude more energy as ICE are not even a half efficient compared to electric motors

Electric aircraft face the same issue that electric cars face - energy density. Electric motors may be more efficient than combustion engines, but the energy density of oil-derived fuels is so high that batteries can't compete. Jet fuel is 43MJ/kg compared to batteries that are mostly significantly less than 1 MJ/kg.

If an aircraft requires 100 tonnes of jet fuel to fly three hundred people over several thousand miles, even with the efficiency savings of an electric motor over a high-bypass turbofan, you're going to need more than 100 tonnes of batteries. Indeed, you're going to need several hundred tonnes of batteries. And then your aircraft won't fly because it'll be too heavy.

If/when batteries can give 30+MJ/kg energy density, then electric aircraft for commercial use will be possible. Until then? Nope, not going to happen.

[AJI]

... So I don't think that there will be a time where such a battery is viable for daily use, but this doesn't matter for "entertainment" like racing.

Agreed. A throw away battery for daily use is ridiculous, even if you get 10,000ks per battery, which they don't, but I'm failing to see the downside in a motorsport application.

[Just_a_fan]

... So I don't think that there will be a time where such a battery is viable for daily use, but this doesn't matter for "entertainment" like racing.

Agreed. A throw away battery for daily use is ridiculous, even if you get 10,000ks per battery, which they don't, but I'm failing to see the downside in a motorsport application.

If Formula E is trying to be "green", throwing away batteries after a single use is going against the message, wouldn't you say?

[AJI]

... So I don't think that there will be a time where such a battery is viable for daily use, but this doesn't matter for "entertainment" like racing.

Agreed. A throw away battery for daily use is ridiculous, even if you get 10,000ks per battery, which they don't, but I'm failing to see the downside in a motorsport application.

If Formula E is trying to be "green", throwing away batteries after a single use is going against the message, wouldn't you say?

Ever heard of recycling? How "green" is shipping a power station to every event?