Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dans79]

after nitrogen and oxygen it's water vapour that's next - up to maybe 8% in Singapore

From memory this wiki chart looks pretty close to correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher ... omposition

and afaik altitude doesn't affect the composition (except for the water vapour)

Per nasa models, It does change with altitude, but we are talking the edge of space altitudes.

[Sierra117]

after nitrogen and oxygen it's water vapour that's next - up to maybe 8% in Singapore

From memory this wiki chart looks pretty close to correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher ... omposition

and afaik altitude doesn't affect the composition (except for the water vapour)

Per nasa models, It does change with altitude, but we are talking the edge of space altitudes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ht.svg.png

OT but could you explain the N molecule there in the chart? I thought it's unstable and we only have N2 but the chart even dedicated a line and colour to it and it can be seen a tiny bit on the chart at the bottom somewhere starting around 300km but remains flat.

The grapefruit smell can only mean there's some biofuel involvement. Maybe a particular compound that's isolated but also retains the smell. Like how the extract from fruit rind is used for its cleaning ability but the citrus smell carries over too.

[dans79]

OT but could you explain the N molecule there in the chart? I thought it's unstable and we only have N2 but the chart even dedicated a line and colour to it and it can be seen a tiny bit on the chart at the bottom somewhere starting around 300km but remains flat.

Thats well outside the realm of my expertise. I just now the graph is based on the MSIS-E-90 model. https://ccmc.gsfc.nasa.gov/modelweb/mod ... _vitmo.php

[Dr. Acula]

hydrogen that's dissolved in oil isn't the hydrogen that's combined with carbon to be oil
so removing hydrogen that's dissolved in oil doesn't stop the oil being oil

Can you provide a number of how much hydrogen you can dissolve in a litre of oil at ambient pressure and temperature?

hydrogen has reverse solubility (in hydrocarbons eg 'oil')
ie its solubility increases with temperature (unlike eg the ready solubility of methane, ethane, butane, propane etc in 'oil')
try 'Phase Behavior of Hydrogen-light-Hydrocarbon Systems' by Benhom, Katz, & Williams
btw such solubility is important to enable hydrogenation processes (chemical reactions) for eg vehicle and human fuels

but yes if a bit of eg ozone or something can boost combustion efficiency or ITE by 2% that's 20 or 30 bhp

btw years ago I suggested dissolving hydrocarbon 'gases' in the fuel - cyclopentene ?, cyclopropene etc
this is of course now heavily restricted by the rules limiting fuel vapour pressure (and carbon atom count)

Yes, but there's already one of the problems. The oil heats up in the intercooler. But for the hydrogen to come out, you would have to cool it down.
Also i did a google search about the topic and what i found out is, that we speak basically about the so called "Ostwald-coefficient". A typical value for the solubility of hydrogen in oil seems to be 0.039 at 20°C. Which means you can dissolve 0.039 litre of hydrogen per litre oil...that's nowhere near enough to make any difference. Even if you heat the oil up and the solubilty would improve by a magnitude, it's still basically nothing because of the ridicoulisly low density of hydrogen.

[Big Tea]

I have read several places where Scientists are hoping to be able to create 'metallic hydrogen' so there must be a possibility of enriching it, but i realise it is several orders of higher than what we are talking of. Just adding this 'for interest' sake

(https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 5/1/012194 for example)

[atanatizante]

after nitrogen and oxygen it's water vapour that's next - up to maybe 8% in Singapore

From memory this wiki chart looks pretty close to correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospher ... omposition

and afaik altitude doesn't affect the composition (except for the water vapour)

Per nasa models, It does change with altitude, but we are talking the edge of space altitudes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ht.svg.png

OT but could you explain the N molecule there in the chart? I thought it's unstable and we only have N2 but the chart even dedicated a line and colour to it and it can be seen a tiny bit on the chart at the bottom somewhere starting around 300km but remains flat.

The grapefruit smell can only mean there's some biofuel involvement. Maybe a particular compound that's isolated but also retains the smell. Like how the extract from fruit rind is used for its cleaning ability but the citrus smell carries over too.

Chemical elements which are in a gas state of matter exists as molecules rather than atoms, at ambient pressure and temperature, for being a more stable state of coexistence. Molecules, in general, are made by two atoms of the same chemical element, thus we could see terminology like O2, N2, H2 etc. and occasionally by 3 atoms (such as ozone) ...

At higher altitudes, there are lower temps and lower pressures and the chemical molecular bonds between the atoms are broken which led them to enter into an ionic state of matter, called plasma ... Thus, the terminology used is O2- "at the power of minus 2" or H+ which is a proton and so forth ... So, in that chart O, N, He, H are ions in a certain electric charging stage, plus (cations) or minus (anions).

[PlatinumZealot]

Adding Ozone as an additive might help combustion (limited benefit in a fuel limited formula), but any improvement will be close to zero if the O3 is made from the incoming O2. It is the same atoms of oxygen you are adding in each case.
You might be only gaining about 15% enthalpy compared to the incoming oxygen (the bonds in ozone are weaker), and that only for the small amount of oxygen that you convert.

The overall reaction is

3O2→2O3ΔH=286kJ
Note that 3 O=O bonds of oxygen are broken, and 4 O-O bonds of ozone are formed. If the bond energy of ozone is E, then:
E=(3∗498+286)kJ/4mol=445kJ/mol

In any case, ozone is relatively toxic for humans (would be OK after combustion, but not in the every likely case that excess oxygen is used) and something like this would likely be banned on the spot.

Thermodynamics. Thermodynamics.

By use of an Ozone generator you are doing two things:
Adding energy to the gas stream in some form (creating Ozone).
Using excess energy from the battery without going through the FIA sensors.

Ozone itself.. hypothetically improves combustion by reacting with the hydrocarbons more completely and even altering their properties slightly during reaction. This pre-reaction could produce cooler fuels to help detonation maybe?

https://hal-univ-orleans.archives-ouver ... 4/document

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 062015/pdf

https://www.intechopen.com/books/intern ... ompounds-b

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/a ... src=recsys

The feasibility of improving ignition and combustion performance of methane by ozone addition has been studied in the present work. First, combustion of a lean methane/air mixture with ozone addition was conducted by using a constant volume combustion bomb. Results showed that ozone could extend the lean combustion limit and accelerate flame speed.

[atanatizante]

Adding Ozone as an additive might help combustion (limited benefit in a fuel limited formula), but any improvement will be close to zero if the O3 is made from the incoming O2. It is the same atoms of oxygen you are adding in each case.
You might be only gaining about 15% enthalpy compared to the incoming oxygen (the bonds in ozone are weaker), and that only for the small amount of oxygen that you convert.

The overall reaction is

3O2→2O3ΔH=286kJ
Note that 3 O=O bonds of oxygen are broken, and 4 O-O bonds of ozone are formed. If the bond energy of ozone is E, then:
E=(3∗498+286)kJ/4mol=445kJ/mol

In any case, ozone is relatively toxic for humans (would be OK after combustion, but not in the every likely case that excess oxygen is used) and something like this would likely be banned on the spot.

Don`t think that`s entirely correct ...

1. The chemical reaction is : 3 molecules/mol of molecular oxygen transforms (in certain conditions) into 2 molecules/mol of ozone + 286kj energy - it`s an exergonic reaction
2. 3 molecules of oxygen have 1 bivalent bond between the 2 oxygen atoms as that terminology say (3 O=O) but in the ozone molecule, there are 2 bivalent bonds and not 4 monovalent one like your quote stated ...
3. From the above first point (the chemical reaction) the correct ozone energy bond should be rather: E=(3∗498-286)kJ/2mol which is actually 604kJ rather than 445kJ/mol

[PlatinumZealot]

Great work!
Seems google is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands!

[hollus]

I think those 286 kJ are added to the the system, not removed. We could discuss the vagaries of energies per mol of molecules versus per mol of bonds, but it would be grossly off topic.
I think the two key points raised by Platinum are that you are adding energy to your input gas, potentially even recycling energy that otherwise would go to waste, and that you might end up with a more thorough or faster combustion. And both points probably have merit to them, come to think of it. The second one could even work with very small amounts of O3.

[atanatizante]

I think those 286 kJ are added to the the system, not removed. We could discuss the vagaries of energies per mol of molecules versus per mol of bonds, but it would be grossly off topic.
I think the two key points raised by Platinum are that you are adding energy to your input gas, potentially even recycling energy that otherwise would go to waste, and that you might end up with a more thorough or faster combustion. And both points probably have merit to them, come to think of it. The second one could even work with very small amounts of O3.

It`s fine with me ...
Now regarding that very small amounts of ozone, I said here that you could build a little Hofmann voltameter (viewtopic.php?p=868343#p868343) primarily to produce H2 - which is dangerous had it`s not controlled - but in certain condition (e.g. having an overvoltage at the anode electrode) could provide small quantities of ozone coz the air within that particular area is ionized with that electrical charge ...

[.poz]

I think those 286 kJ are added to the the system, not removed. We could discuss the vagaries of energies per mol of molecules versus per mol of bonds, but it would be grossly off topic.
I think the two key points raised by Platinum are that you are adding energy to your input gas, potentially even recycling energy that otherwise would go to waste, and that you might end up with a more thorough or faster combustion. And both points probably have merit to them, come to think of it. The second one could even work with very small amounts of O3.

It`s fine with me ...
Now regarding that very small amounts of ozone, I said here that you could build a little Hofmann voltameter (viewtopic.php?p=868343#p868343) primarily to produce H2 - which is dangerous had it`s not controlled - but in certain condition (e.g. having an overvoltage at the anode electrode) could provide small quantities of ozone coz the air within that particular area is ionized with that electrical charge ...

IMHO it's just a way to waste energy

Hydrolysis has a low efficiency (40% ?) , why use electricity to produce H and O and burn them in a combustion engine (efficiency 40% ?) when you can use those electricity in the MGUK (efficiency 90%) ?

About ozone

the only advantage i can see in ozone in a fuel limited engine is that it is a "more packed" form of oxygen, so to burn the same amount of fuel you need a smaller volume of air; lower turbo pressure an so more energy to recover from MGUH and less energy wasted in the compression phase of ICE

[dans79]

Hydrolysis has a low efficiency (40% ?) , why use electricity to produce H and O and burn them in a combustion engine (efficiency 40% ?) when you can use those electricity in the MGUK (efficiency 90%) ?

The MGU-K has a limited output, so once you reach the limit, any energy have left is just being wasted. Thus the next logical step is to come up with a way to benefit from the extra energy so it doesn't go to waste.

[gruntguru]

By use of an Ozone generator you are doing two things:
. . . . .
Using excess energy from the battery without going through the FIA sensors.

Is this possible?

[henry]

Hydrolysis has a low efficiency (40% ?) , why use electricity to produce H and O and burn them in a combustion engine (efficiency 40% ?) when you can use those electricity in the MGUK (efficiency 90%) ?

The MGU-K has a limited output, so once you reach the limit, any energy have left is just being wasted. Thus the next logical step is to come up with a way to benefit from the extra energy so it doesn't go to waste.

It doesn’t “go to waste”, it’s used to drive the compressor in e-boost mode. Obviously this is a relatively low efficiency but it’s not wasted and it’s 100% legal and known to exist.