Wynters wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 15:54
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Long time reader, first time poster, just wanted to counter some of the bs posted here.
Fact 1: Verstappen is a full carlength ahead at the braking zone.
At the 100m board, Hamilton has a part of his car alongside.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Fact 2: At no point during the first corner does Hamilton come fully alongside Verstappen.
Agreed.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Fact 3: Verstappen is on the inside and always ahead.
During Turn 1.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Analysis: Verstappen has the inside line and can dictate the line, being the first corner of the race he should leave a carwidth space on the outside, which he does.
In the immediate aftermath of the rear contact, there is not a carwidth space between Verstappen's left rear and the white line.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Fact 4: The initial contact is at the front between Hamiltons front wing and Verstappens left front tyre, causing Verstappens car to slide a bit and causing the 2nd contact at the rear.
Watching Verstappen's onboard, there is no audio or visual indication of this impact, no marking on Hamilton's front wing endplate and no immediate reaction on the steering wheel from Verstappen. It may also be significant that Verstappen has to take multiple bites which is not indicative of a front impact directly triggering a slide.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Fact 5: Hamilton loses control, with benefit of the doubt this is because of the contact of the rear, although the loss of control is strangely a quarter count after the contact, instead of directly at the contact ( This could be due to break of contact or powerapplication at a wrong timing?)
The pause is not dis-similar to that displayed by Verstappen. Why no commentary to that effect during 'Fact 4'?
Hamilton is travelling in an arc, it's difficult to rule whether the lateral rear impact is the deciding factor in the subsequent loss of control. I find the suggestion that the loss of adhesion is due to the different surface to be equally plausible.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Analysis: Verstappen has maybe a small oversteer of the curb, but corrects this well, he is actually trying to squeeze Hamilton to compromise his next left corner and gain advantage there. Hamilton doesnt want to be squeezed and keeps his line, the cars collide at the front.
Agree about the lines.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Hamilton is misdirecting at the Press conf. he clearly does not leave extra room for Verstappen.
This is a clear misrepresentation of what Hamilton said in the press conference.
"If you’ve seen races before, I always leave Max a lot of space – it’s the smartest thing you can do.
But there wasn’t a lot of space to give him space."
Additionally, what drivers did or didn't say at the press conference is irrelevant to an analysis of the event as, best case scenario, witnesses in real time are unreliable. Why include it? And, having included it, why misrepresent it?
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Verstappen being on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line, since he leaves enough space on the outside.
Up until the point of the impact, this is correct and will, therefore, apply to T2 now that Hamilton is in the lead, correct?
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Fact 6: Hamilton has lost control of his car, almost torpedoes Vettel and fully forces Verstappen of the track in the 2nd corner.
'Torpedoes' is yet another use of emotive language, characteristically used to discredit one of the two participants in this event.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
Analysis: this should have been investigated by the stewards, telemetry should point out the cause of Hamiltons loss of control.
He neither hit Vettel nor caused Vettel to take evasive action. Why should this be investigated by the Stewards? If the Stewards should investigate all incidents where a loss of control led to a near-contact, why did you not call for a Stewards' investigation of Verstappen losing control and significantly damaging Hamilton's car, possibly contributing to this further loss of control? Again, you present a very clear and deliberate double-standard.
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 11:46
However this is a racing incident due to 2 drivers claiming the same space at the first corner. If anyone is at fault it is Hamilton, being on the outside and behind and having a better view of Verstappens car then vice versa.
Having agreed it is a racing incident, you then go on to blame Hamilton, despite him being "on the inside and ahead should not be at fault for choosing this line." Nor do you make any mention of Verstappen steering into Hamilton's right rear as they both try to make the corner nor do you call for a Stewards' investigation into that contact.
Whilst you raise some interesting points, your post is disappointingly undermined by consistent but one sided use of language, manipulation of context and inconsistent standards exclusively applied to one driver.
You are kinda comparing apples and oranges at some points, but you do make some fair points.
- 100 m point:
- Yes, during turn 1, I didnt add that, cause I thought it was clear I was talking about turn 1 at that point.
- The question of leaving space is a matter of the lines taken, not the aftermath of contact.
- I cannot help you if you do not see the contact of front wing on front tyre, Verstappen in fact immediately reacts, straightening his steering wheel and even steering slightly to the left on that contact.
- Verstappen has multiple corrections because he first has to correct the front contact, then the rear contact etc.
- There is no comment on a Verstappen pause, cause there is no such significant pause.
- Agreed the different surface is another option, thats still the drivers responsibility, having to anticipate that different surface and not losing control because of it.
- Cause it is misdirection, trying to paint Verstappen as the bad guy. Previous races are irrelevant, he clearly does not leave a lot of space here, nor does he run out of space on the outside. I agree that the PC comments relevance is somewhat lacking, I could have left it out, I just really do not like misdirection.
- That does apply to Hamilton in T2, however the contact during T1 is of influence on the situation in T2. T1 and T2 cannot be compared 1:1.
- Torpedoes is a simple and accurate description of forward motion following a ramming action into a target in a straightline. Torpedoes can in fact miss.
- Its the forcing another driver of the track that should be investigated, not the near contact with Vettel. The near contact is only an indication of loss of control. In fact I think Verstappen, who has shown very good car-control in the past is in control until the contact.
- Hamilton fully missing apex and racing line in T2 is not comparable to Verstappen following Leclerc's and Quali-lines followed by some squeezing in T1.
- I didnt mention the final contact cause it does not seem to have any impact on further events, nor does it cause any damage, thus being irrelevant.
- Your last line is ridiculous. Both drivers are not in the same situation and cannot be treated as such.
NathanOlder wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 16:09
Oleo wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 14:54
Yes i agree, Hamilton can push Verstapen wide at corner exit if he is ahead and on the inside, however he completely misses the apex and forces Verstappen off way before corner exit, which makes it a problem for me.
But I bet you have no problem with Max doing it to Charles in Austria ? Max never made the apex and forced Charles off, but I didn't see you jumping to Charles defense in Austria.
You are wrong.
RZS10 wrote: ↑01 Nov 2019, 16:24
Seems like Oleo did not bother reading the thread properly ... i mentioned the contact at the front and the sequence of events 13 pages ago when i posted the heli cam gif and once again 4 pages back ... lol
His argument of "the driver ahead dictates the line" falls apart the moment Max has his slight oversteer over the curb because at that point he lost control for a split second which initiated the chain of events
I have read the thread, although I do not remember every single post, your point is irrelevant, I posted because still people are posting clear falsehood-oneliners, which I countered with a factlist + some opinion.
I disagree that Max lost control of his car at that point I think his going wide a little bit is very much deliberate squeezing.