2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[diffuser]

The thing the team most needs is a bit more humility and less entitlement from Max, if you ask me. Still not accepting his mistakes, like Brazil last year, he's not learning what he needs to learn. He's the perfect example of how in F1 it needs more than blinding speed.

And Charles is learning

Leclerc and Max both say the same thing:

Max says what he thinks and

Leclerc says what he thinks others want to hear.

well it's true Max says what he thinks, and yes in that sense i trust him more than Charles. I was really disappointed in Charles in Monza, But Max really needs to be less aggressive, it's costing so many great results. Even in Suzuka, while it was 100% Charles' fault on the day, at the same time it arose from Max's feuding that he gets into so easily

and Charles is super self-critical and learning as fast as he can, without the stubbornness, and as these two get into their mega rivalry over the next years that's going to make a difference

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement and in that way, the statement is inaccurate. Saying "he has no filter" is more percise. Often, the outcome of his comments aren't what he would have wanted had he thought about it.

When you say "LeClerc says what he thinks people want to hear", he's using his filter.

Alonzo didn't always use his filter and waded in neck deep into some shiit too. Come to think about it, had Alonzo used his filter on some of his career decisions, he would have been better off.

[Singapore2008]

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement

To a lot of people, it is.

It may not be the wisest thing to do, but a lot of people like it. (and a lot of people don't)

[Bumper cars]

Leclerc and Max both say the same thing:

Max says what he thinks and

Leclerc says what he thinks others want to hear.

well it's true Max says what he thinks, and yes in that sense i trust him more than Charles. I was really disappointed in Charles in Monza, But Max really needs to be less aggressive, it's costing so many great results. Even in Suzuka, while it was 100% Charles' fault on the day, at the same time it arose from Max's feuding that he gets into so easily

and Charles is super self-critical and learning as fast as he can, without the stubbornness, and as these two get into their mega rivalry over the next years that's going to make a difference

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement and in that way, the statement is inaccurate. Saying "he has no filter" is more percise. Often, the outcome of his comments aren't what he would have wanted had he thought about it.

When you say "LeClerc says what he thinks people want to hear", he's using his filter.

Alonzo didn't always use his filter and waded in neck deep into some shiit too. Come to think about it, had Alonzo used his filter on some of his career decisions, he would have been better off.

If you do not agree with a certain statement or opinion that doesn't mean the opinion/statement is inaccurate. It simply doesn't match your way of thinking and your way of thinking is not the benchmark everyone should obey.

Max uses a straightforward relevant/not relevant filter. And regarding the things he deems relevant, he is always honest and direct without a trace of politics. In the grand scheme of F1-dynamics that's maybe not always the easy road, but he remains a pure/real character (including his imperfections).

Charles plays a fake humble game to position himself as a likeable role model. Some people adore him for that, others see right through it, but it remains an engineered approach.

Above also explains why Max fits Red Bull so well and Charles is a match with Ferrari. Just my 2 cents...

[Jambier]

Yes

RB needs to be able to win championship in 2021, and then everything will be ok with Max
Otherwise it will be war internally I fear

Jambier, What's about 2020 ?
Why you do not trust RBR to challenge on the Drivers or Constructor title for 2020 ?
You still think that RBR should stick with Renault ?
thanks

I think 2020:

- Should be the same than 2019, I hope RB can be more of a challenge (meaning winning 5-6 races)
- I think they will still be agressive in engine dev, meaning they will use 4 or 5 engine
- I think the big focus is to be ready for 2021, have the best concept, have Honda more than ready, use 3 engine, and fight for the title

2020 if they can win why not, but it should not be too much the focus.

I also think that the "full Max gamble" is dangerous. If in 2021 he doesn't fight for the title he will leave... and they have no one really able to replace him now that RIC is gone.

[izzy]

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement and in that way, the statement is inaccurate. Saying "he has no filter" is more percise. Often, the outcome of his comments aren't what he would have wanted had he thought about it.

When you say "LeClerc says what he thinks people want to hear", he's using his filter.

Alonzo didn't always use his filter and waded in neck deep into some shiit too. Come to think about it, had Alonzo used his filter on some of his career decisions, he would have been better off.

Max can have a compliment can't he? He's not ALL bad

A lot of what he says is good imo, straightforward and well informed, and when he's talking stubborn/aggressive/feuding it's not saying it that's the problem it being those things. That's what's been hurting the team. It just caught my eye that he's still blaming 'a backmarker' for losing the win in Brazil last year, when he's had that whole 12 months to consider whether he really needed to defend, but apparently he's just dug in, mentally. And as the lead driver that's not ideal, when the other top teams are being led by drivers who do learn

[SF Engineer]

Yes

RB needs to be able to win championship in 2021, and then everything will be ok with Max
Otherwise it will be war internally I fear

Jambier, What's about 2020 ?
Why you do not trust RBR to challenge on the Drivers or Constructor title for 2020 ?
You still think that RBR should stick with Renault ?
thanks

I think 2020:

- Should be the same than 2019, I hope RB can be more of a challenge (meaning winning 5-6 races)
- I think they will still be agressive in engine dev, meaning they will use 4 or 5 engine
- I think the big focus is to be ready for 2021, have the best concept, have Honda more than ready, use 3 engine, and fight for the title

2020 if they can win why not, but it should not be too much the focus.

I also think that the "full Max gamble" is dangerous. If in 2021 he doesn't fight for the title he will leave... and they have no one really able to replace him now that RIC is gone.

I can see your first 2 points, after that I disagree.

1. Honda is only committed to F1 until 2020, beyond that has not been decided. They may well continue, but then again they may quit- this likely depends on the more general situation of the company.

2. Max is only committed to Red Bull until 2020, beyond that is undecided.

3. 2021 is a huge rules shake up. It is not predictable what will happen immediately. After a year or two it would be a good bet to say the top teams will find a way to separate themselves, but if the new financial regulations have the intended effect then this will be less than in the past.

2020 is the year to show they can compete and push for the championship. At the moment there are too many variables for 2021 (unless things have been decided behind closed doors). I think the package is there or thereabouts, and am looking forward to a good fight next year.

[Sieper]

Hi Izzy,

thank for sharing your thoughts (and doing so with positivity). I can also see why you would feel Max hasn't learned from Brazil (As he restated that he still feels Ocon pushed him off). But let me assure you, he has. On multiple occasions since he has stated that he will now handle it differently and should have not let it happen. And of course, most of times when he made a mistake the next time he did not make the same mistake again but also on some occasions he clearly has (ignoring yellow in Mexico was the second time for him) so you can never be sure but despite having a hard time to admitting changes are needed he does mostly come back at it at a later point.

I agree with Max that Ocon made the mistake there, so in fact restating that Ocon was to blame (which he also was, and heavily penalized for) is not so stubborn, the fact that he needs to recognize these kind of situations and make sure they won't happen (so in fact if a backmarker is 100% committed to reovertaking / unlapping himself on you) even if it means you as frontrunner on a lap more means to get out of his way) I think Max will now be cautious for and will do. That is something he has stated several times (later during lats year) hew ill now do differently. Max oftentimes needs a gestation period to say/admit what he has learned.

[diffuser]

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement and in that way, the statement is inaccurate. Saying "he has no filter" is more percise. Often, the outcome of his comments aren't what he would have wanted had he thought about it.

When you say "LeClerc says what he thinks people want to hear", he's using his filter.

Alonzo didn't always use his filter and waded in neck deep into some shiit too. Come to think about it, had Alonzo used his filter on some of his career decisions, he would have been better off.

Max can have a compliment can't he? He's not ALL bad

A lot of what he says is good imo, straightforward and well informed, and when he's talking stubborn/aggressive/feuding it's not saying it that's the problem it being those things. That's what's been hurting the team. It just caught my eye that he's still blaming 'a backmarker' for losing the win in Brazil last year, when he's had that whole 12 months to consider whether he really needed to defend, but apparently he's just dug in, mentally. And as the lead driver that's not ideal, when the other top teams are being led by drivers who do learn

He is excellent. What we're talking about are tweaks. He has 99% of the ability he needs down pat.

[Capharol]

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement and in that way, the statement is inaccurate. Saying "he has no filter" is more percise. Often, the outcome of his comments aren't what he would have wanted had he thought about it.

When you say "LeClerc says what he thinks people want to hear", he's using his filter.

Alonzo didn't always use his filter and waded in neck deep into some shiit too. Come to think about it, had Alonzo used his filter on some of his career decisions, he would have been better off.

Max can have a compliment can't he? He's not ALL bad

A lot of what he says is good imo, straightforward and well informed, and when he's talking stubborn/aggressive/feuding it's not saying it that's the problem it being those things. That's what's been hurting the team. It just caught my eye that he's still blaming 'a backmarker' for losing the win in Brazil last year, when he's had that whole 12 months to consider whether he really needed to defend, but apparently he's just dug in, mentally. And as the lead driver that's not ideal, when the other top teams are being led by drivers who do learn

lets recap what happens if you get overtaken
1) you lose (normally) your position (not in this case)
2) you lose time, an overtake cost the overtaken time because he drives or needs to drive another line,
and you lose downforce in the corners if you are to close on the guy in front, which means Max had to slow down because he didn't want to be driving in the drag of the car in front, which would have bring Hamilton back into play and as far as i know Lewis wasn't that far away, so Lewis could have come within DRS range and then try to overtake Max.
3) was it neccessary of Ocon to overtake, in my opinion, NO, because he had nothing to win (only unlapping himself e.g. Ego) would he have won something with the overtake..... NO again, he would have gotten blue flaggs right away anyway and Max could have use his DRS to lap him again (which shouldn't be if he really was that much faster), which gives another situation with unpredictable outcome....

so if Ocon would have stayed behind Max, nothing would have happenend and therefore i say Max is right in keep his opinion on that Race.

this has nothing to do with being stubborn, it's just seeing things in his perspective.... and yes (sometimes) Max speaks before he thinks, unfiltered, he saying what others are thinking or saying it more political (Hamilton said actually the same but with other (milder) words..... does anybody taken notice of that? .... barely.

[langedweil]

This has nothing to do with being stubborn, it's just seeing things in his perspective.... and yes (sometimes) Max speaks before he thinks, unfiltered, he saying what others are thinking or saying it more political (Hamilton said actually the same but with other (milder) words..... does anybody taken notice of that? .... barely.

I'd take 'no-filter' over 'filter' any time of the day, but I guess that's part of the (almost infamous, and apparently unexplainable) dutch directness.
When I cook my wife and kids a proper dish and ask if they liked it, I don't need a polite answer but want to know how it really was ... adding unnecessary white noise doesn't serve at all.

But lately it almost seems socially awkward to be unfiltered in this instragamized era.
As said before, I'm old ..

[izzy]

lets recap what happens if you get overtaken
1) you lose (normally) your position (not in this case)
2) you lose time, an overtake cost the overtaken time because he drives or needs to drive another line,
and you lose downforce in the corners if you are to close on the guy in front, which means Max had to slow down because he didn't want to be driving in the drag of the car in front, which would have bring Hamilton back into play and as far as i know Lewis wasn't that far away, so Lewis could have come within DRS range and then try to overtake Max.
3) was it neccessary of Ocon to overtake, in my opinion, NO, because he had nothing to win (only unlapping himself e.g. Ego) would he have won something with the overtake..... NO again, he would have gotten blue flaggs right away anyway and Max could have use his DRS to lap him again (which shouldn't be if he really was that much faster), which gives another situation with unpredictable outcome....

so if Ocon would have stayed behind Max, nothing would have happenend and therefore i say Max is right in keep his opinion on that Race.

this has nothing to do with being stubborn, it's just seeing things in his perspective.... and yes (sometimes) Max speaks before he thinks, unfiltered, he saying what others are thinking or saying it more political (Hamilton said actually the same but with other (milder) words..... does anybody taken notice of that? .... barely.

yes okay, Max didn't want to be passed, for good reasons as you say. But did the team want him to move defensively to the inside for T1, force Esteban to the outside, then claim the apex of the right-hander, blind?

cos which WDC's would have done that? Not Schumi imo, not Kimi, or Fernando, or Lewis, and probably not Seb either

so alright Max was only just 21, fair enough, but what the team would be hoping for now, surely, is for Max to be saying he learned from that and won't do it again, not that it was just all the other guy. And iirc he had a bit of a feud brewing with Esteban already

The team is up against Lewis+Mercedes, and Ferrari+Charles. It's a struggle to match those cars but they can. Max can match their drivers on pace, what they need from him is the rest of it. Charles is learning, and Lewis obviously has learned. Max, meanwhile, is not learning: he should've won Mexico but he steered into Lewis and then into Valtteri, being too aggressive, and got the same result as a slow driver

[Wouter]

Max, meanwhile, is not learning: he should've won Mexico but
he steered into Lewis and then into Valtteri, being too aggressive,
and got the same result as a slow driver

I think I have seen a completely different race.

[diffuser]

When you say "Max says what he thinks" it almost sounds like a complement

To a lot of people, it is.

It may not be the wisest thing to do, but a lot of people like it. (and a lot of people don't)

cool.

[Capharol]

lets recap what happens if you get overtaken
1) you lose (normally) your position (not in this case)
2) you lose time, an overtake cost the overtaken time because he drives or needs to drive another line,
and you lose downforce in the corners if you are to close on the guy in front, which means Max had to slow down because he didn't want to be driving in the drag of the car in front, which would have bring Hamilton back into play and as far as i know Lewis wasn't that far away, so Lewis could have come within DRS range and then try to overtake Max.
3) was it neccessary of Ocon to overtake, in my opinion, NO, because he had nothing to win (only unlapping himself e.g. Ego) would he have won something with the overtake..... NO again, he would have gotten blue flaggs right away anyway and Max could have use his DRS to lap him again (which shouldn't be if he really was that much faster), which gives another situation with unpredictable outcome....

so if Ocon would have stayed behind Max, nothing would have happenend and therefore i say Max is right in keep his opinion on that Race.

this has nothing to do with being stubborn, it's just seeing things in his perspective.... and yes (sometimes) Max speaks before he thinks, unfiltered, he saying what others are thinking or saying it more political (Hamilton said actually the same but with other (milder) words..... does anybody taken notice of that? .... barely.

yes okay, Max didn't want to be passed, for good reasons as you say. But did the team want him to move defensively to the inside for T1, force Esteban to the outside, then claim the apex of the right-hander, blind?

cos which WDC's would have done that? Not Schumi imo, not Kimi, or Fernando, or Lewis, and probably not Seb either

so alright Max was only just 21, fair enough, but what the team would be hoping for now, surely, is for Max to be saying he learned from that and won't do it again, not that it was just all the other guy. And iirc he had a bit of a feud brewing with Esteban already

The team is up against Lewis+Mercedes, and Ferrari+Charles. It's a struggle to match those cars but they can. Max can match their drivers on pace, what they need from him is the rest of it. Charles is learning, and Lewis obviously has learned. Max, meanwhile, is not learning: he should've won Mexico but he steered into Lewis and then into Valtteri, being too aggressive, and got the same result as a slow driver

It's not only that Max didn't want to get passed, it more the question what did Ocon think he had to gain from it... overtaking Perez who was actually out of reach?
I wonder how you determine that he is learning or not.... like everbody else he has his way of doing things, which went well for him for 90% of his carriere, but because of the (less) amount of accidents, he is not learning... did Vettel learned as he made his mistakes (the same) has Leclerc learned from his mistakes, which he can repeat but we don't really know yet, because it was his 1st year in the spotlight, he made mistakes aswell which cost him the victory or a better position, his "complaining" on the radio at Singapore and Russia where the same although he said after the 1st time he wouldn't do it like that anymore.... he did it the next race, so has he learned there?
Who knows how he handles himself next year (goes for all drivers anyway) so from that point of view I don't think we are able to judge if a person has really learned, they are all humans, and humans makes mistakes, when these mistakes looks alike we tend to say "oh he didn' learn" that is in my opinion uther BS, because circumstaines can bring you to the same mistake although you try to avoid it.

@langdweil .... i do the same, i say what i think without filter and i am 47, because i hate talking through the bushes and being like "yeah looks fine, but when.....", no either it is crap, bullsh*t it is exacty that, if its good or nice, it's exactly that.
doesn't pleases all ppl, but that who i am, take it or leave it, but i expect exactly the same from the others to tell me the truth... directly as it is

[izzy]

It's not only that Max didn't want to get passed, it more the question what did Ocon think he had to gain from it... overtaking Perez who was actually out of reach?
I wonder how you determine that he is learning or not.... like everbody else he has his way of doing things, which went well for him for 90% of his carriere, but because of the (less) amount of accidents, he is not learning... did Vettel learned as he made his mistakes (the same) has Leclerc learned from his mistakes, which he can repeat but we don't really know yet, because it was his 1st year in the spotlight, he made mistakes aswell which cost him the victory or a better position, his "complaining" on the radio at Singapore and Russia where the same although he said after the 1st time he wouldn't do it like that anymore.... he did it the next race, so has he learned there?
Who knows how he handles himself next year (goes for all drivers anyway) so from that point of view I don't think we are able to judge if a person has really learned, they are all humans, and humans makes mistakes, when these mistakes looks alike we tend to say "oh he didn' learn" that is in my opinion uther BS, because circumstaines can bring you to the same mistake although you try to avoid it.

well today i am just going on what was quoted, Max saying he would've won Brazil last year but for a backmarker. Yes Esteban was at fault too, 50% or whatever, (it was in case of a safety car they're told to unlap if they can) but Max didn't allow for it and now he's still saying it's nothing to do with him, when the WDC's would have allowed for it. Charles yes is making his share of mistakes but he beats himself up for them and tries to learn, when more often Max gets into his stubborn denial, like "I gave him space!! They're killing racing!" and all that, instead of looking at himself and trying to learn and accept he needed to do something different.

At this point Mercedes have a driver advantage, because of this trait. By next year Charles will have learned some more and he might be having fewer incidents too. This is a big thing for the team. i don't think anybody is faster than Max, but that's not the whole package they need. Probably he is getting better, but if they're talking about the wdc next year it's not fast enough, so far. As i've said before he needs to get his dad out of the garage, swap him for someone like Angela to calm him down