The curious case of Sebastian Vettel

[PlatinumZealot]

Vettel been smearing brown stuff all over the tracks these days. What a mess! Even after a slight comeback I can't see him recovering from this now!

[gshevlin]

I lost a lot of respect for Sebastian Vettel after the "Multi 21" incident, where he clearly disobeyed team orders, and then threatened Red Bull with legal action in order to get his way. If I had been Red Bull, I would have fired his ass, but that's just me, plus Vettel could get the performance out of the car using exhaust blowing on the diffuser and Mark Webber could not. Of course, Vettel's reliance on exhaust blowing left him all at sea in 2014 when Daniel Ricciardo out-performed him, which he could not cope with, and which is part of the reason that he is now at Ferrari.
Vettel, like Michael Schumacher, does not respond well to overt pressure in race situations. He prefers the Schumacher situation of having a compliant #2 driver. Charles Leclerc is not that compliant #2. It is, in many ways, a repeat of the Senna-Prost showdown at McLaren.
Ferrari will not order Leclerc to defer to Vettel since he is clearly the future of the team. However, they may have to sit both drivers down and tell them to stop running into each other on-track or face being crippled for a race weekend, like Racing Point had to do with Esteban Ocon and Sergio Perez after they kept colliding.

[Andres125sx]

Vettel, like Michael Schumacher, does not respond well to overt pressure in race situations. He prefers the Schumacher situation of having a compliant #2 driver.

Do you know any driver who will not prefer a compliant #2 teammate?


Anycase I agree with you, RBR over-protect his #1 driver and that´s not good in the long term for the driver. They did it with Vettel so now he´s not used to his teammate fighting him, and now they´re doing exactly the same with Verstappen. They allow their favourite driver being unfair, they´re unfair theireselves with one of their own drivers, and they cause a lot of discussions in F1T

Let alone the #2 driver, who suffer undeserved media beating and is not considered as high as he should be just to promote their #1. Webber and Ricciardo are just two victims of RBR hype train, but there are others like Sainz who was also handicaped because of being Max teammate in their first F1 season, and now with hindsight we can see he was the teammate who fighted Max harder up to now, any other teammate of the dutch has been anihilated, but Sainz, even when he never was as fast as Max, was always much much closer than all their next teammates. And even in his very first season he was more consistent than Max btw


Seb, same as Max now, was a prima-dona in RBR. I can´t blame RBR too much for this as that´s a good strategy to maximize the perfomance of your #1, but I´m not sure if it´s good for the driver himself. We must keep in mind that F1 drivers should be drivers with lots of experience or they would never reach F1, but lately they´re reaching F1 when they´re just teenagers, and teenagers need some mental training to cope with the pressure, responsibility, media, etc. Even if they´re one of the fastest drivers in F1 history, talent and maturity are different things

[NathanOlder]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

[izzy]

I lost a lot of respect for Sebastian Vettel after the "Multi 21" incident, where he clearly disobeyed team orders

a lot of people don't know this was actually about Webber being difficult in Brazil the previous year, when Seb was fighting for the championship and instead of helping his teammate Mark nearly put him in the barrier. that's why seb wasn't taking any hold station crap from him

[NathanOlder]

I lost a lot of respect for Sebastian Vettel after the "Multi 21" incident, where he clearly disobeyed team orders

a lot of people don't know this was actually about Webber being difficult in Brazil the previous year, when Seb was fighting for the championship and instead of helping his teammate Mark nearly put him in the barrier. that's why seb wasn't taking any hold station crap from him

That again was Vettel overreacting. Webber left him enough room on the inside.

[izzy]

I lost a lot of respect for Sebastian Vettel after the "Multi 21" incident, where he clearly disobeyed team orders

a lot of people don't know this was actually about Webber being difficult in Brazil the previous year, when Seb was fighting for the championship and instead of helping his teammate Mark nearly put him in the barrier. that's why seb wasn't taking any hold station crap from him

That again was Vettel overreacting. Webber left him enough room on the inside.

well afaik it's only Christian Horner who's said anything, and i was only exaggerating a very little, as Webbo did squeeze him and make him lift and lose another couple of places. It wasn't exactly teammate stuff, with a wdc on the line

[Andres125sx]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

Oh man now I hate you, Ricciardo is one of my favourite drivers but now I´m forced to disagree

In 2016 when Max was promoted to RBR mid-season their intra-team battles in sunday, when both cars finsihed the race was 8-7 for Ricciardo, close considering he was new to the car

In 2017 it was 5-2, for Max

In 2018 8-4 for Max too

Ok it was a great battle too, but Max was faster, also more inconsistent and crash prone, but he was a teenager, it was something expected

[NathanOlder]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

Oh man now I hate you, Ricciardo is one of my favourite drivers but now I´m forced to disagree

In 2016 when Max was promoted to RBR mid-season their intra-team battles in sunday, when both cars finsihed the race was 8-7 for Ricciardo, close considering he was new to the car

In 2017 it was 5-2, for Max

In 2018 8-4 for Max too

Ok it was a great battle too, but Max was faster, also more inconsistent and crash prone, but he was a teenager, it was something expected

I'm not taking anything away from Max, just pointing out from the day Max stepped in, to the Day Danny announced his departure, Danny scored more points every year.

But people say Max ripped danny apart.

Points are everything, and Danny was better the whole time he was 'in' the team and not an outsider. (not blaming RedBull, every team does the same)

[Phil]

I love Riccardo, but saying he outperformed Max is like saying Button beat Hamilton because he somehow scored more points across 3 seasons.

Max killed Riccardo in all the metrics that matter - that being pure speed. He ended up beating himself in the various mistakes he made when trying too hard, similar to how Hamilton was involved in various incidents especially in 2011 that cost him a lot of points while his team mate just concentrated on bringing in consistent points.

To Vettel/Leclerc - the incident was unfortunate, but it was also a relatively minor error by smallest margins with the biggest imaginable outcome. Vettel didnt want to crash nor hit Leclerc, nor did Leclerc want that to happen.

It was a good battle for beating each other, perhaps exaggerated a bit due to the difference in strategy and the variance of tires they were using at that stage of the race.

IMO vettel and leclerc have been both pretty similar in performance over the course of the season. I’d give the qualifying edge to Leclerc, with a slight edge to race pace to Vettel. There is no doubt Leclerc has been a bit on a run after the summer break with consecutive poles that should have netted him dominant wins in all those races (including Singapore), but i also feel Vettel had a bit of a mental struggle including driving a car that is not entirely tailored to his strengths. However, Leclerc’s ability to drive around issues is something that clearly shod be attributed to him and his skill vs Vettel.

Going into 2020, i think Leclerc will be the stronger driver. I think he is very strong mentally and prone to less mistakes under pressure, which perhaps will work in his favor and against Seb. Still, i wouldnt discount Seb. If things work out right and he gets off to a good start, he could be a strong opponent and difficult to beat, even for Leclerc.

[Andres125sx]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

Oh man now I hate you, Ricciardo is one of my favourite drivers but now I´m forced to disagree

In 2016 when Max was promoted to RBR mid-season their intra-team battles in sunday, when both cars finsihed the race was 8-7 for Ricciardo, close considering he was new to the car

In 2017 it was 5-2, for Max

In 2018 8-4 for Max too

Ok it was a great battle too, but Max was faster, also more inconsistent and crash prone, but he was a teenager, it was something expected

I'm not taking anything away from Max, just pointing out from the day Max stepped in, to the Day Danny announced his departure, Danny scored more points every year.

But people say Max ripped danny apart.

Points are everything, and Danny was better the whole time he was 'in' the team and not an outsider. (not blaming RedBull, every team does the same)

20-14 was the total result of race days when both teammates finished the race, for Max. Focusing on points is bias, there was around 15DNF each season in RBR, points are a matter of who´s lucky to finish his better races and retire on those wich didn´t go great, or the other way around

20-14 considering Max was a teenager and Ricciardo had loads more experience both in F1 and with that particular car is amazing, and I´ll repeat I´m a big Ricciardo fan, but reality is what it is.

People say Max ripped Danny apart because people enjoy exaggerating, but they have a very solid base to say that

[NathanOlder]

Oh man now I hate you, Ricciardo is one of my favourite drivers but now I´m forced to disagree

In 2016 when Max was promoted to RBR mid-season their intra-team battles in sunday, when both cars finsihed the race was 8-7 for Ricciardo, close considering he was new to the car

In 2017 it was 5-2, for Max

In 2018 8-4 for Max too

Ok it was a great battle too, but Max was faster, also more inconsistent and crash prone, but he was a teenager, it was something expected

I'm not taking anything away from Max, just pointing out from the day Max stepped in, to the Day Danny announced his departure, Danny scored more points every year.

But people say Max ripped danny apart.

Points are everything, and Danny was better the whole time he was 'in' the team and not an outsider. (not blaming RedBull, every team does the same)

20-14 was the total result of race days when both teammates finished the race, for Max. Focusing on points is bias, there was around 15DNF each season in RBR, points are a matter of who´s lucky to finish his better races and retire on those wich didn´t go great, or the other way around

20-14 considering Max was a teenager and Ricciardo had loads more experience both in F1 and with that particular car is amazing, and I´ll repeat I´m a big Ricciardo fan, but reality is what it is.

People say Max ripped Danny apart because people enjoy exaggerating, but they have a very solid base to say that

SO Ricciardo having MORE mechanical issues in the 2017 and 2018 seasons (the 2 full seasons they were team mates) makes Max better than Ricciardo somehow. Focusing on points is not bias, its one of a better way to gauge things.

And saying Max was a teenager vs an experienced driver means nothing. If that was the case, it would mean Hamilton absolutely destroyed Fernando in 07. He was a rookie against the current double world champion.

[Wass85]

Ah, the old points without any context argument.

Like already has been said, if you just look at points you would say that Button was the better driver out of him and Hamilton.

Max had plenty of failures whilst partnered with Daniel, I can bet my last dollar that Max was ahead of Daniel when his failures happend more frequently than when Daniel was in front of him when his car gave up the ghost.

Ricciardo is a great driver no doubt, in fact at one point he was touted as arguably the best on the grid, that is until an extra special driver became his teammate.

[Wass85]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

Wrong thread?

[sosic2121]

From the moment Max stepped in to the RedBull, Ricciardo out scored him by the end of the season in 2016.

2017 Ricciardo outscored him.

2018 Ricciardo was ahead of him up to the point Ricciardo announced his departure (2/3 through the season) . Ricciardo would have been completely shut out after agreeing to join the ultimate enemy (and rightly so).

Basically I'm saying Danny beat Max very nicely across the 3yrs. But many think Max destroyed Danny.

+1
I regard him as one of the best F1 drivers at the moment.