The curious case of Sebastian Vettel

[Andres125sx]

I'm not taking anything away from Max, just pointing out from the day Max stepped in, to the Day Danny announced his departure, Danny scored more points every year.

But people say Max ripped danny apart.

Points are everything, and Danny was better the whole time he was 'in' the team and not an outsider. (not blaming RedBull, every team does the same)

20-14 was the total result of race days when both teammates finished the race, for Max. Focusing on points is bias, there was around 15DNF each season in RBR, points are a matter of who´s lucky to finish his better races and retire on those wich didn´t go great, or the other way around

20-14 considering Max was a teenager and Ricciardo had loads more experience both in F1 and with that particular car is amazing, and I´ll repeat I´m a big Ricciardo fan, but reality is what it is.

People say Max ripped Danny apart because people enjoy exaggerating, but they have a very solid base to say that

SO Ricciardo having MORE mechanical issues in the 2017 and 2018 seasons (the 2 full seasons they were team mates) makes Max better than Ricciardo somehow. Focusing on points is not bias, its one of a better way to gauge things.

Cherry picking convenient data proves nothing

What makes Max better is the stated 20-14 against Ricciardo when ignoring mechanical failures. Mechanical failures means nothing about drivers talent

[marvin78]

This Thread was weird from the beginning but it is getting weirder and weirder with every post.

[turbof1]

It's not even about Vettel anymore, that's the weirdest part.

Atleast everybody is more or less behaving in a driver topic, so who am I to complain.

[Wynters]

It is fascinating to see the various logical contortions people go through. The implicit (and often explicit) double-standards, the inconsistencies, the cherry-picking, the religious-like faith applied.

The whole psychology of sport 'ultra' fans is mesmerising (at least, it is for me) and the parallels you can draw to thinking in every other aspect of life are illuminating.

I think F1 is particularly good for it as there are so few instances and so many camera angles. I don't think I'll ever forget the reaction to the Vettel/Hamilton incident in Baku. A clearer penalty inflicted by the driver on themselves I struggle to think of and yet there were vociferous defenders of Vettel arguing with total belief that it wasn't a penalty. There are still people who think Verstappen did nothing wrong (despite his own admission of guilt) in Mexico qualifying and his penalty was purely a conspiracy by Stewards who are always out to get him. (Inevitably, every driver will see similarly one-eyed support).

The majority of the pleasure I get from this site is being able to read and learn from the technical insight of many of its contributors and posters. But a significant proportion also comes from studying the interactions in threads such as these. I'd also just like to take a moment to thank the moderators for their relentless (and voluntary) hard work in keeping the latter under control. I very, very, very much appreciate it.

As for Vettel and Leclerc, Rosberg has his own take on it.
https://youtu.be/61h03_1L2QE?t=136

[Wass85]

At the end of the day we are all guilty of microanalysing incidents to suit are own narrative.

It was a racing incident that could have been avoided by both parties. They are both fighting to be alpha male in the team so these things are going to happen from time to time.

[Jambier]

The 4x WDC has been somewhat off-colour recently. What do we think the reasons are? He made some errors in his early years in F1, but nothing like the errors he's made in the last 18 months. Are we simply looking at a driver reaching the end of his career in F1? I know he's denied it various times, but surely if the form doesn't improve, retirement has to be on the cards? Can we seriously expect him to spend a whole year playing second fiddle to Leclerc in 2020?

The story of Vettel is simple: It is a rather good driver, that should have been a solid guy of the midfield, like a Perez, a Hulkenberg.

But he manage to be at the right time right place at Red Bull and win 4 titles on an incredibly dominant car.
Luckily for him, his team mate was not really a killer, I like Webber, but never was a top driver.

Then RIC beat him, then he got a end of carreer RAI in front of him (the same RAI that was absolutely destroyed by ALO) and now that again there is a good driver in front of him it is difficult.

He simply overdrive to try to be better than he really his, he can't see the truth of how lucky he was with the 4 WDC

And it could have been worse, if you put Hamilton, Verstappen or Alonso in the same car.

Anyway, I think 2020 will be his last year in F1

[ENGINE TUNER]

At the end of the day we are all guilty of microanalysing incidents to suit are own narrative.

It was a racing incident that could have been avoided by both parties. They are both fighting to be alpha male in the team so these things are going to happen from time to time.

It was not racing incident, it was a racing accident, AVOIDABLE CONTACT/COLLISION, fully caused by Vettel, LEC is within his rights to go straight without a madman driving into the side of him ON A STRAIGHT.

[ENGINE TUNER]

As for Vettel and Leclerc, Rosberg has his own take on it.
https://youtu.be/61h03_1L2QE?t=136

Rosberg is totally insane, being 1 inch ahead of the driver next to you does NOT give you the right to push him in any direction. No wonder both he and Vettel (and Massa) caused so many collisions with such ridiculous ideas in their heads. Vettel was 100% fully at fault and it is absurd that the FIA continues to allow him to be a wrecking ball without properly penalizing him.

[Jolle]

As for Vettel and Leclerc, Rosberg has his own take on it.
https://youtu.be/61h03_1L2QE?t=136

Rosberg is totally insane, being 1 inch ahead of the driver next to you does NOT give you the right to push him in any direction. No wonder both he and Vettel (and Massa) caused so many collisions with such ridiculous ideas in their heads. Vettel was 100% fully at fault and it is absurd that the FIA continues to allow him to be a wrecking ball without properly penalizing him.

Rosberg has his own past of pushing drivers off track on a straight.... hahaha

[selvam_e2002]

quick question: what make Vettel to stay in Ferrari or in F1 in 2020? Salary?

He already damaged his name and reputation. who else will take him after all these drama? He is fighting within his own team mate not even for WCC.

I hope he will retire as Rosberg or leave for one year and come back to RB in 2021.

If Ferrari try to keep him or if he stick with Ferrari in 2020, we will see lot of fighting between himself and Lecrec. For us it is very interesting to see.. and enjoyable...

I don't see any single reason for Vettel to stay at Ferrari in 2020.

[El Scorchio]

quick question: what make Vettel to stay in Ferrari or in F1 in 2020? Salary?

He already damaged his name and reputation. who else will take him after all these drama? He is fighting within his own team mate not even for WCC.

I hope he will retire as Rosberg or leave for one year and come back to RB in 2021.

If Ferrari try to keep him or if he stick with Ferrari in 2020, we will see lot of fighting between himself and Lecrec. For us it is very interesting to see.. and enjoyable...

I don't see any single reason for Vettel to stay at Ferrari in 2020.

There are probably about 50 million reasons for him to stay there for one more season! He'd be foolish to walk away and forego that. If they want him out then they compensate him. I think the damage to his legacy has probably already been done somewhat, since he left Red Bull. He'll race for himself and with nothing to lose but everything to gain next year. If Ferrari don't like it, then they'll have to do something about it.

As for 2021, who knows? Don't see how he can resign for Ferrari, but would Mercedes or Red Bull be interested in him at the salary he'd command? There's no point in him driving for any other team, but does he want to risk going to either of those and getting beat by Hamilton or Verstappen? Of course again he'll have nothing to lose and everything to gain, seen as most obvservers have openly declared both those drivers superior, now. He can just go there to try and prove people wrong.

[Just_a_fan]

As for Vettel and Leclerc, Rosberg has his own take on it.
https://youtu.be/61h03_1L2QE?t=136

Rosberg is totally insane, being 1 inch ahead of the driver next to you does NOT give you the right to push him in any direction. No wonder both he and Vettel (and Massa) caused so many collisions with such ridiculous ideas in their heads. Vettel was 100% fully at fault and it is absurd that the FIA continues to allow him to be a wrecking ball without properly penalizing him.

Rosberg has his own past of pushing drivers off track on a straight.... hahaha

Yeah, not known for being ultra clean around other drivers - even his team mate...

[Wass85]

Vettel is getting a hammering of late. He showed at a young age he's a very talented driver, getting pole and the win in 08 was a very special moment for F1.

[Jolle]

Vettel is getting a hammering of late. He showed at a young age he's a very talented driver, getting pole and the win in 08 was a very special moment for F1.

He was one hell of a driver, but the rest of the field kept improving and he didn't. Now he's passed left and right by the young guard. What both Ricciardo and Leclerc did is quite amazing. Coming into a new team as a junior and directly challenging the lead driver.
I think Vettel is a very nice guy, probably good for a laugh etc etc, but he also lacks self reflection and that hurts him in his lack of improvement. To stop making a certain mistake, you first have to own your mistake. In his mind it probably is still Verstappens fault that they hit each other in Singapore or Webber's fault in Turkey. Look at Hamilton, he makes a mistake and owns it. This means in his mind he will be more aware not to make the same mistake again. Vettel will cut across track again whenever he feels like it.

[El Scorchio]

Vettel is getting a hammering of late. He showed at a young age he's a very talented driver, getting pole and the win in 08 was a very special moment for F1.

He was one hell of a driver, but the rest of the field kept improving and he didn't. Now he's passed left and right by the young guard. What both Ricciardo and Leclerc did is quite amazing. Coming into a new team as a junior and directly challenging the lead driver.
I think Vettel is a very nice guy, probably good for a laugh etc etc, but he also lacks self reflection and that hurts him in his lack of improvement. To stop making a certain mistake, you first have to own your mistake. In his mind it probably is still Verstappens fault that they hit each other in Singapore or Webber's fault in Turkey. Look at Hamilton, he makes a mistake and owns it. This means in his mind he will be more aware not to make the same mistake again. Vettel will cut across track again whenever he feels like it.

There's a lot of truth in that. If a driver genuinely doesn't see or think they are in the wrong, then they aren't going to in their mind have cause to change anything and it'll happen again. That's a bit of a trait in Vettel.

Verstappen is on the edge right now. No matter what the circumstances, in his mind it's always the other guy's fault. No matter what the penalty is for, he's always screaming how unfair it is on the radio, which screaming for penalties for the same transgressions for other drivers. Be interesting to see if he can start to gain more perspective.

What's the common link? Favourite child of Horner and Marko. Protected and favoured at all costs. Even against their team mates. It definitely builds a certain can do no wrong attitude.

As Webber said famously after multi 21- 'The team told me the race was over and I turned my engine down. Seb made his own decision and he will have protection as usual.'