Red Bull RB16 Speculation Thread

[godlameroso]

The winglets don't necessarily add drag, they improve consistency of the aero by having smaller vortecies which are less sensitive than a big one especially under yaw.

For simplicity's sake imagine 1 vortex divided by 5. Sure 1 vortex has the strength of 5, but if it stalls or is disturbed you now have nothing. If you have 5, yeah they are weaker, probably induce a bit more drag, but if you lose one, you lose 20% instead of 100%

[Just_a_fan]

The winglets don't necessarily add drag

Yes they do. They add drag just by being there, for a start. When they work the air they add more drag - every time they turn the air or create a vortex they also create drag. You can't do one without the other.

[Singapore2008]

The winglets don't necessarily add drag, they improve consistency of the aero by having smaller vortecies which are less sensitive than a big one especially under yaw.

For simplicity's sake imagine 1 vortex divided by 5. Sure 1 vortex has the strength of 5, but if it stalls or is disturbed you now have nothing. If you have 5, yeah they are weaker, probably induce a bit more drag, but if you lose one, you lose 20% instead of 100%

The winglets do add drag. But when applied, the teams see more benefits in terms of downforce. I get that. And I understand why you should 5 instead of 1.

But again, it's not what I mean. You are comparing 5 small winglets against 1 big winglet. I am comparing 5 winglets against none. In the past Red Bull has used a lot less winglets then other teams year after year. That's not a coincidence and nor does it mean their engineers don't know how they work.

I believe they are trying to avoid them as much as possible and we are not going to see more winglets etc. in the rear next year

[wesley123]

No, that's not what I was trying to say. I will try again...

I think we agree that a car needs as much downforce as possible with as less drag as possible.

I believe that adding more and more winglets (like on top of the sidepods of last years McLaren) is not the best way to go. It means you have to redirect the airflow in an (dragwise) expensive way.

But like said, downforce is more detrimental to laptime than drag is, so downforce is pretty much always the way to go. So, those winglets are the way to go. They extend the possibility for improvement where other areas cannot.

Also, that they increase drag by itself doesn't mean they increase overall drag. They often improve aero in other parts of the car, taking drag away in these areas.

Your view also is flawed when you consider that the team that went all the way on downforce with little concern of drag won both championships even more dominantly than they did in 2017 and 2018.

It seems to me the Red Bull engineers try to solve there problems with as little winglets etc. as possible. Preferably by FW en bargeboard changes.

They also start every year on the back foot so far, so you'll have to question how much that has really brought them. You also become dependant of the winglets to push your aero further than it could normally go.

Example; The current trend in F1 is to have the airflow 'roll' off the sidepod. This is desirable because airflow over the sidepod generally creates lift. They are reliant on the winglets and all the elements in these areas to allow this effect to happen and prevent airflow detachment. Thus these winglets allow more downforce, for essentially zero drag.

[Singapore2008]

No, that's not what I was trying to say. I will try again...

I think we agree that a car needs as much downforce as possible with as less drag as possible.

I believe that adding more and more winglets (like on top of the sidepods of last years McLaren) is not the best way to go. It means you have to redirect the airflow in an (dragwise) expensive way.

But like said, downforce is more detrimental to laptime than drag is, so downforce is pretty much always the way to go. So, those winglets are the way to go. They extend the possibility for improvement where other areas cannot.

Also, that they increase drag by itself doesn't mean they increase overall drag. They often improve aero in other parts of the car, taking drag away in these areas.

Your view also is flawed when you consider that the team that went all the way on downforce with little concern of drag won both championships even more dominantly than they did in 2017 and 2018.

It seems to me the Red Bull engineers try to solve there problems with as little winglets etc. as possible. Preferably by FW en bargeboard changes.

They also start every year on the back foot so far, so you'll have to question how much that has really brought them. You also become dependant of the winglets to push your aero further than it could normally go.

Example; The current trend in F1 is to have the airflow 'roll' off the sidepod. This is desirable because airflow over the sidepod generally creates lift. They are reliant on the winglets and all the elements in these areas to allow this effect to happen and prevent airflow detachment. Thus these winglets allow more downforce, for essentially zero drag.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't use winglets.

I'm just saying I do not expect a lot of fancy winglets etc. in the rear. I expect that because they've never done so lately. I think that's part of their philosopy.

And if you think that's the wrong way to go, that's a completely different discussion.

[Just_a_fan]

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't use winglets.

I'm just saying I do not expect a lot of fancy winglets etc. in the rear. I expect that because they've never done so lately. I think that's part of their philosopy.

And if you think that's the wrong way to go, that's a completely different discussion.

They have certainly been using plenty of winglets this year:

Bargeboard area


Floor area

[auv]

No, that's not what I was trying to say. I will try again...

I think we agree that a car needs as much downforce as possible with as less drag as possible.

I believe that adding more and more winglets (like on top of the sidepods of last years McLaren) is not the best way to go. It means you have to redirect the airflow in an (dragwise) expensive way.

But like said, downforce is more detrimental to laptime than drag is, so downforce is pretty much always the way to go. So, those winglets are the way to go. They extend the possibility for improvement where other areas cannot.

Also, that they increase drag by itself doesn't mean they increase overall drag. They often improve aero in other parts of the car, taking drag away in these areas.

Your view also is flawed when you consider that the team that went all the way on downforce with little concern of drag won both championships even more dominantly than they did in 2017 and 2018.

It seems to me the Red Bull engineers try to solve there problems with as little winglets etc. as possible. Preferably by FW en bargeboard changes.

They also start every year on the back foot so far, so you'll have to question how much that has really brought them. You also become dependant of the winglets to push your aero further than it could normally go.

Example; The current trend in F1 is to have the airflow 'roll' off the sidepod. This is desirable because airflow over the sidepod generally creates lift. They are reliant on the winglets and all the elements in these areas to allow this effect to happen and prevent airflow detachment. Thus these winglets allow more downforce, for essentially zero drag.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't use winglets.

I'm just saying I do not expect a lot of fancy winglets etc. in the rear. I expect that because they've never done so lately. I think that's part of their philosopy.

And if you think that's the wrong way to go, that's a completely different discussion.

I'm afraid it's not the philosophy. They are just short on the propelling force.

[Bandit1216]

I think they have to go downforce all the way, even if drag is the penalty. Merc beat RB on their own game (DF) in 2019 knowing the pu is on par now. And redbull had to reduce drag because of the pu’s. But not anymore. Let Ferrari have monza.

[godlameroso]

The average gap was .3, but the Mercedes could at times pull out a second per lap. There is a variety of reasons for that, perhaps the Mercedes is more fuel efficient, or maybe you can pull more pace from the chassis and not have to rely on the engine as much allowing you those few laps where you can pull a second per lap. The RB15 was on average .3 seconds per lap slower despite being forced to run at a steady pace at tracks that favored Mercedes.

Would increasing the average steady pace by .3 relative to Mercedes be enough to fight them for the championship? Does that .3 need to come entirely from the chassis? Suppose that .3 gap is closed maybe it's not enough to topple Mercedes on tracks that favor their car, but maybe it's enough to stop the 1-2. Then on tracks that don't favor Mercedes you increase you odds of winning. Obviously there will be tracks that favor Ferrari as well which will have the RB16 fighting on two fronts. With fewer Mercedes 1-2s and a stronger Ferrari taking points and wins away from them, if the RB16 is regularly challenging at the front, wins the races they're supposed to win, and populates the podium when they can't win then they have a good chance.

[Bandit1216]

Amen to that. I hope the champ of 2020 will be so with 5 wins orso.

[Pyrone89]

If you read the full article from amus it says Honda pu is within single digits hp away from Mercedes from what I can deduce Honda has already caught Mercedes or pass them after what we saw from Brazil. Amus is a little biased towards merc. In fact Honda did produce a graph that effectively says they had matched Mercedes for so really they is no point speculating we got the answer from the horses mouth.

Cyril thinks his engine is second best he put Mercedes dead last.Toto on the other hand put Mercedes 2nd Renault last so really to extent everyone see what they want to see.

It's absurd to thing Mercedes lost it's edge just like that. Their engine is still the benchmark, the other Mercedes teams weren't complaining about power.

About the RB16, I think that the rear end of the car lacked a lot of little winglets and features that were on other cars. I sincerely think that now that they more or less get the new regulations they can add a lot of parts that weren't on the car this year. If we look at the RB15 vs the Mercedes, Mercedes did more detail work around the rear of the car than RB did. Particularly the rear wing end plates.

There is more than just HP. Also weight, drivability and fuel consumption. If Mercedes needs to take 5KG less fuel with them it is 1,5 tenths in racetrim alone by that.

[KiLLu12258]

redbull needs to come with a good car to the first race, thats there problem for some time now, they are very good at delevop the car over the season and at some point are able to win races, but they lose every season at the first half.

[siskue2005]

redbull needs to come with a good car to the first race, thats there problem for some time now, they are very good at delevop the car over the season and at some point are able to win races, but they lose every season at the first half.

They were pretty conservative in 2017 starting. From there onwards they are playing catchup every season

[Bill]

Redbull car of 2018 was a good car from race 1 problems with Redbull is when they is a new regulations except for 2009

[godlameroso]

I agree the 2018 RB was a good car with an unreliable engine. 2020 RB should be a good car with a good engine.