Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[sticktion]

If this is true, there are a limited number of possibilities:
1. ...
2. ...

There's a third (remote) possibility: the FIA measured correctly, but with only 16 minutes until race start, altered the procedure. Perhaps they skipped the third weighing and so accidentally forgot to seal the fuel hatch/quick disconnect, allowing Ferrari to remove the extra fuel in their garage. They'd have a very small window of time to get it done, but it's possible.

If the FIA measured incorrectly and forgot to seal the hatch/disconnect, then not even the post race weigh-in/corroborating sensor readings would be enough to completely prove Ferrari's innocence, hence the fine.

[karana]

I also wonder how much can go wrong of the proposed method of weighing the car, emptying the fuel, weighing it again. One could argue that if there was an inaccuracy, they’d be more likely to measure too little fuel (not completely drained) rather than overfueling by a not insignificant amount. You cant drain more than there is physical supposed to be in the car.

The fueled car is actually weighed twice, before the draining and after the refueling, so if there was a mistake, then probably when weighing the empty car. But that is weighed again after the race. If the empty car after the race is around 5kg heavier than one would expect from the first weighing, this could be an indicator for a mistake by the FIA.

[ncx]

Assuming that [FFM measured consumption]+[final stewards' weighing result]=[SF declaration] and that the FFM never detected excess flow rate, there seem to be only two reasonable possibilities left: 1) the stewards made a mistake in the initial weighing; 2) SF made the FFM under-read the flow.

The impression from several articles is that the procedure for fuel weighing be standard: any team would be told of any discrepancy between official measurement and declared figure before the race. This time, though, the team (SF) was told just about 8' (iirc) before pitlane opened for the GP and therefore there was no time to carry out another weighing. Even if it wasn't standard practice to warn the team of a discrepancy, the team would know that the stewards have weighed fuel and car, and during the race would act accordingly to protect themselves.

Binotto said that they had already been tested for fuel weight 10 times this year; assuming that he referred to any car of the team rather than just #16, that would be consistent with the stewards choosing randomly 5 out of the 20 cars at each race, which seems plausible. So, there would be about 44% chance that at least one of the two cars of the team would have been checked by the stewards: why take such a risk at a race where there is nothing relevant left to win?
The most likely explanation seems to me that to be a stewards mistake. The question remains, though: if the stewards are correct, the penalty is far too lenient; if they are wrong, there should be no penalty. Maybe lawyers adviced them to settle?

[IvailoStefanovBG]

Is it possible to add more fuel after car weighting? And how much time before start standart weighting procedure is done?
I mean SF were checked 10 times. After check they add the excessive amount of fuel. They manipulate FFS and burn the fuel. FIA weight the car after race and numbers from FFS and weighting match - nothing suspicious. In Abu Dabi FIA decide to make sudden check of SF car 16 just 19 minutes before race. And SF are caught. Actually this is the only way to manipulate FFS and not being caught - SF know that FIA check fuel quantity before and after race on random basis. They only way to burn more fuel and not being caught is to add it after weighting.
PS. Middle season Wolff talked about Mercs being 5% lower on power compared to SF. 4,88kg of fuel are very close to these 5% - 5,5 kilos.

[saviour stivala]

Is it possible to add more fuel after car weighting? And how much time before start standart weighting procedure is done?
I mean SF were checked 10 times. After check they add the excessive amount of fuel. They manipulate FFS and burn the fuel. FIA weight the car after race and numbers from FFS and weighting match - nothing suspicious. In Abu Dabi FIA decide to make sudden check of SF car 16 just 19 minutes before race. And SF are caught. Actually this is the only way to manipulate FFS and not being caught - SF know that FIA check fuel quantity before and after race on random basis. They only way to burn more fuel and not being caught is to add it after weghting.

The fuel mass load a team intends to put into the tank must be declared to the FIA at least two hours before the race as per TD 12-19 issued before start of season. The teams are not restricted in what fuel mass load they intend to put into the tank. The car might be randomly selected to verify the declared fuel mass flow. No fuel can be added or taken off the car. Nobody knows the time before the race that car 16 was checked. The FIA notified FERRARI that the fuel mass weight declared for car 16 had been found to not match their weighing eight minutes before pit-lane opened. By that stage it was too late to request a second check, and once car 16 left the garage there was than no way of providing what may or may not have been in the car.

[Phil]

Why are there doubts over if there was a mistake with regards to checking the cars weight in what is really a very simple procedure? On what grounds?

[LM10]

Why are there doubts over if there was a mistake with regards to checking the cars weight in what is really a very simple procedure? On what grounds?

On grounds of Ferrari having told that their calculations told them they didn't overfuel.

[Wouter]

The first part of this Italian article translated with Google Translate.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/miste ... a/4607885/

Ferrari mystery: an error in the FIA ​​fuel verification?

From: Franco Nugnes

The FIA ​​World Council has decided to change the fuel verification methods after the case of Yas Marina in which Ferrari was fined $ 50,000 for the discrepancy between the gasoline embarked on the Red Leclerc and the team's declared one. But if the mistake had not been made by the Scuderia?

In the FIA ​​document on the last World Council there is a paragraph that has not been taken too much into consideration. It reads: the procedure for the withdrawal and verification of the fuel during the events in which a self-certification is required must be reviewed.

This point, to our knowledge, was not on the list to be voted on Monday in Paris, but was added after the Abu Dhabi "crime", a sign that the controversial episode that took place before the last Grand Prix had a " wake "which was not at all clear.
--------
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Was there an error in the Ferrari self-certification or in the FIA ​​measurement carried out, among other things, by a former Cavallino technician? The World Council document suggests that the case is destined to remain one of the mysteries of F1 ...

[sosic2121]

Why are there doubts over if there was a mistake with regards to checking the cars weight in what is really a very simple procedure? On what grounds?

On grounds of Ferrari having told that their calculations told them they didn't overfuel.

I wonder, this being f1, is tank large enough to be overfueled? Or is it sized just enough to carry 110kgs.

[Phil]

On grounds of Ferrari having told that their calculations told them they didn't overfuel.

Can you find me a direct quote from someone? Because as far as I can see (and I have checked most reputable f1 sites), this is all based on some assumption that the FIA could have made some mistake because they changed the procedure. However, if something about this procedure was in doubt, or the result itself, by those that carried it out, why would there be an official fine?

The process that examines the amount of fuel in the car is pretty straight forward. I'd be surprised if there was potential to make a mistake there and if a mistake was made, for the result to show too much fuel, rather than too little. Think about it. The process isn't rocket science. A fine was issued. What out there points to a legitimate mistake? If anything, I'd be more prepared to believe that Ferrari made a mistake with their calculations of how much fuel they wanted to put into the car and what ended up there.

[Big Tea]

If this is true, there are a limited number of possibilities:
1. ...
2. ...

There's a third (remote) possibility: the FIA measured correctly, but with only 16 minutes until race start, altered the procedure. Perhaps they skipped the third weighing and so accidentally forgot to seal the fuel hatch/quick disconnect, allowing Ferrari to remove the extra fuel in their garage. They'd have a very small window of time to get it done, but it's possible.

If the FIA measured incorrectly and forgot to seal the hatch/disconnect, then not even the post race weigh-in/corroborating sensor readings would be enough to completely prove Ferrari's innocence, hence the fine.

Is it possible that there is yet another option?
Working on the assumption that the car is weighed, and total noted. Fuel is added which should come to the stated amount plus the original car weight, but is now almost 5kg over, and Ferrari say the correct fuel was added, could something other than the fuel have been added in the interim?

Trying to think what addition would benefit the car but Ferrari would not want known, and the only thing I can think of is (say) dry ice to reduce the fuel temperature? What effect would 5kg of dry ice have on measurements of flow?

Alternately, where else could something have been added which would presumably not be a weight penalty during the race? (assuming the Co2 would have done its cooling and sublimated before the start)

[saviour stivala]

The size of the fuel tank (what mass of fuel it can hold) is free.
The mass fuel load that a team decides/intends to put in the fuel tank before a race (minimum two hours before race) is free.
“Car 16 The fuel in the tank was taken out ones and put back in without having had the time to carry out a counter-check to confirm the weight registered. Because there was no time left for car 16 to be on the starting grid in time. For this reason the FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification of the declared fuel mass in fuel tank before race”.

[hollus]

...Trying to think what addition would benefit the car but Ferrari would not want known, and the only thing I can think of is (say) dry ice to reduce the fuel temperature? What effect would 5kg of dry ice have on measurements of flow?...
Alternately, where else could something have been added which would presumably not be a weight penalty during the race? (assuming the Co2 would have done its cooling and sublimated before the start)

There is no way that 5 kg of dry ice go unnoticed. 5 kg of dry ice sublimate into ~2.3 cubic meters of very cold air (well, very cold gas), which must be vented out. That's the stuff used to make floor clouds in rock concerts and I work with it regularly, that car would have been literally smoking for several minutes.

Edit: I talk BS, dry ice could, in principle dissolve itself in gasoline in such amounts. Humble pie in the next page.

[Big Tea]

...Trying to think what addition would benefit the car but Ferrari would not want known, and the only thing I can think of is (say) dry ice to reduce the fuel temperature? What effect would 5kg of dry ice have on measurements of flow?...
Alternately, where else could something have been added which would presumably not be a weight penalty during the race? (assuming the Co2 would have done its cooling and sublimated before the start)

There is no way that 5 kg of dry ice go unnoticed. 5 kg of dry ice sublimate into ~2.3 cubic meters of very cold air (well, very cold gas), which must be vented out. That's the stuff used to make floor clouds in rock concerts and I work with it regularly, that car would have been literally smoking for several minutes.

Even if vented on to a hot surface, like exhaust. Possibly to give an intercooler effect?

[subcritical71]

...Trying to think what addition would benefit the car but Ferrari would not want known, and the only thing I can think of is (say) dry ice to reduce the fuel temperature? What effect would 5kg of dry ice have on measurements of flow?...
Alternately, where else could something have been added which would presumably not be a weight penalty during the race? (assuming the Co2 would have done its cooling and sublimated before the start)

There is no way that 5 kg of dry ice go unnoticed. 5 kg of dry ice sublimate into ~that car would have been literally smoking for several minutes.

Are you trying to say that’s what has been coming out of the ‘breather’ on the ferraris all this time! And we did notice, we just thought they were burning grapefruits (I’m joking of course!)