Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Alexf1]

Maybe Ferrari can add a liquid (from the cooling or lubrication tanks) to the fuel tank just before the race and let their FFS trick make it be invisible. Only a very late fuel check could discover this

[siskue2005]

Nobody doubts the chance of different methods for each team. But the difference with the car 16 check was the checkers had no time left to confirm the weight registered.

where is it given that the FiA were in a rush?

because car 16 could not than make it to the grid in time for the race, for this reason the FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification of the declared fuel mass in fuel thank before race. It means that the FIA are admitting that there was no verification and that they want to rectify that situation.

What? when did that happen?

any source of the claim?

[siskue2005]

Perhaps Ferrari has measured it correctly, but in a different way from the previous times,
which could have created a difference in the end result,
which does not match the measurement of the FIA ​​that has always done it in the same way .
If you do not state that you have measured it differently, you will be fined. Maybe that fine was for that?
Just an idea, because it will always remain a mystery.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... s/4339766/

Dont tell me that Ferrari are now incompetent to understand the method the FIA uses, which has been given out in February 10 months ago.

Also Tombazis gives out furthur warnings
Tombazis has also given a very specific list of situations which may trigger further investigations, and/or the team concerned being reported to the stewards. It reads as follows:

1. If the fuel pump-out procedure differs from the declared and documented process that the team is required to communicate to the FIA in advance.

So any process difference a team has done should have communicated to the FIA! So there is no chance to have different methods for each team, they should follow the same procedure.

I am familiar with that article of 18 February 2019 on Motorsport.
I was talking about point 1.
The teams may follow a different procedure, as long as they pass that on to the FIA ​​before the race
and it is possible that Ferrari did not do that and that they were fined for it.

I have no idea if it went that way, but according to that rule it is a possibility why they have been fined.

If at all there was a different procedure done by the Ferrari we would have heard from them now as a reason for their fuel difference...Surely Ferrari would not have failed to mention such a thing if they could put the blame on FIA!

This shows that the check was done according the TD itself

[henry]

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

This doesn’t say that the same quantity of fuel extracted must be returned. If Ferrari made a mistake, putting in more (or less) fuel than they had declared this might be an opportunity to rectify that.

After the race the FIA could use the rectified weight to calculate the total fuel usage and confirm that it matches the FFS. The weighed use and FFS use have been reported as matching so maybe Ferrari did correct their mistake.

If this is what happens a change to the protocol would be to insist the same quantity be returned as was extracted forcing the teams to run what they brung. IFF a team was planning to fudge the FFS they might be forced to run a heavier car without a boost in power.

The quote before it states this
The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

So it is the same fuel collected in the collector which is put back

It depends what is meant by “collector”.

I think it’s the collector that is part of the fuel system. The lift pump(s) that extract fuel from the fuel tank move it to the collector and it then is extracted from the car. In normal use the fuel in the collector is transferred to the high pressure pump that supplies the injectors.

You think it’s an external container into which the fuel that is extracted is placed.

For a picture of the fuel system with collector see the 2021 technical regs §6.6.1

https://www.fia.com/file/105636/download/29731

Depending on the sizing of the lift pumps this could be quite a lengthy procedure. In service use they need only provide fuel to the collector at 100kg/hr, so even if oversized 3 times that’s over 20mins.

[siskue2005]

This doesn’t say that the same quantity of fuel extracted must be returned. If Ferrari made a mistake, putting in more (or less) fuel than they had declared this might be an opportunity to rectify that.

After the race the FIA could use the rectified weight to calculate the total fuel usage and confirm that it matches the FFS. The weighed use and FFS use have been reported as matching so maybe Ferrari did correct their mistake.

If this is what happens a change to the protocol would be to insist the same quantity be returned as was extracted forcing the teams to run what they brung. IFF a team was planning to fudge the FFS they might be forced to run a heavier car without a boost in power.

The quote before it states this
The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

So it is the same fuel collected in the collector which is put back

It depends what is meant by “collector”.

I think it’s the collector that is part of the fuel system. The lift pump(s) that extract fuel from the fuel tank move it to the collector and it then is extracted from the car. In normal use the fuel in the collector is transferred to the high pressure pump that supplies the injectors.

You think it’s an external container into which the fuel that is extracted is placed.

Yes, coz then this line in the procedure will be invalid

The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.
so to make sure there is nothing left in the car, then they should have a collector which is not in the car
please correct me if i am wrong

[saviour stivala]

Maybe Ferrari can add a liquid (from the cooling or lubrication tanks) to the fuel tank just before the race and let their FFS trick make it be invisible. Only a very late fuel check could discover this

Anything (liquid) in the fuel tank that goes through the fuel flow sensor must end in the combustion chambers (burned-up). anything (liquid) that remains in the fuel tank will be weighted with the car after the race.

[ncx]

I believe that quote originated from before the verdict, not after:

https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/01/fer ... screpancy/

Speaking before the verdict was announced, Binotto said: “I don’t think there is very much to explain. There has been a discrepancy between measurements. We are simply waiting for a decision and we don’t know much.”

“We believe that our measurements are all correct,” he added. “So there is one measurement which is not correct.”

This is the problem with selective quoting.

This quote is nothing but an official line “we believe we did everything correctly, now lets wait and see what the ruling is”. A fine then was issued, so i take it there is/was absolutely no doubt from the stewards that the discrepancy is real and accurate.

The quote is from an interview that took place after ALL measurements had already been carried out. The verdict to which they refer is about the penalty, namely, if there was going to be one and what it would be. That did not and does not change the figures. Again, believe what you will.

[saviour stivala]

Nobody doubts the chance of different methods for each team. But the difference with the car 16 check was the checkers had no time left to confirm the weight registered.

where is it given that the FiA were in a rush?

because car 16 could not than make it to the grid in time for the race, for this reason the FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification of the declared fuel mass in fuel thank before race. It means that the FIA are admitting that there was no verification and that they want to rectify that situation.

What? when did that happen?

any source of the claim?

Reference. “Mistero FERRARI: Un errore nalo verifica benzina FIA”. Motorsports com. Di Franco Nugnes. 7 Dic 2019 12:57.

[saviour stivala]

This doesn’t say that the same quantity of fuel extracted must be returned. If Ferrari made a mistake, putting in more (or less) fuel than they had declared this might be an opportunity to rectify that.

After the race the FIA could use the rectified weight to calculate the total fuel usage and confirm that it matches the FFS. The weighed use and FFS use have been reported as matching so maybe Ferrari did correct their mistake.

If this is what happens a change to the protocol would be to insist the same quantity be returned as was extracted forcing the teams to run what they brung. IFF a team was planning to fudge the FFS they might be forced to run a heavier car without a boost in power.

The quote before it states this
The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

So it is the same fuel collected in the collector which is put back

It depends what is meant by “collector”.

I think it’s the collector that is part of the fuel system. The lift pump(s) that extract fuel from the fuel tank move it to the collector and it then is extracted from the car. In normal use the fuel in the collector is transferred to the high pressure pump that supplies the injectors.

You think it’s an external container into which the fuel that is extracted is placed.

For a picture of the fuel system with collector see the 2021 technical regs §6.6.1

https://www.fia.com/file/105636/download/29731

Depending on the sizing of the lift pumps this could be quite a lengthy procedure. In service use they need only provide fuel to the collector at 100kg/hr, so even if oversized 3 times that’s over 20mins.

The 'picture' of the fuel system with collector for 2021 technical regs 6.6.1 is a different fuel system that the one used up to this past season. I do not believe that draining fuel from the fuel tank is done by the lift-pumps. If before draining the fuel from the fuel tank the 'ignition' had been switched on (lift pumps activated), draining the fuel tank will not drain the collector. the collector can only be drained by running the engine out-of-fuel.

[siskue2005]

Nobody doubts the chance of different methods for each team. But the difference with the car 16 check was the checkers had no time left to confirm the weight registered.

where is it given that the FiA were in a rush?

because car 16 could not than make it to the grid in time for the race, for this reason the FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification of the declared fuel mass in fuel thank before race. It means that the FIA are admitting that there was no verification and that they want to rectify that situation.

What? when did that happen?

any source of the claim?

Reference. “Mistero FERRARI: Un errore nalo verifica benzina FIA”. Motorsports com. Di Franco Nugnes. 7 Dic 2019 12:57.

You mean this article right? Where does it say in this article that "FIA presented a request to the world consul to approve a change in the procedure for verification" ??
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/miste ... a/4607885/
It is just a report on the matter with their own assumptions and interpretations, no solid direct quotes or direct accusations.... all i read is that they are assuming many many things without any facts. There is no such article anywhere else.

Was there an error in the Ferrari self-certification or in the FIA ​​measurement carried out, among other things, by a former Cavallino technician?
Even they dont know what is happening

[Alexf1]

Maybe Ferrari can add a liquid (from the cooling or lubrication tanks) to the fuel tank just before the race and let their FFS trick make it be invisible. Only a very late fuel check could discover this

Anything (liquid) in the fuel tank that goes through the fuel flow sensor must end in the combustion chambers (burned-up). anything (liquid) that remains in the fuel tank will be weighted with the car after the race.

Fuel yes. Unless its liquid like cooling and oil which may be less after the race which you can claim is air vented but in reality is burned

[hollus]

At the end we are all speculating here, so please, let's stop trying to put down other's evidence (which is also largely speculation).

[henry]

The quote before it states this
The team will then be asked to drain the fuel tank, with the fuel pump then run to ensure that all remaining fuel goes into the collector – and the FIA will then make sure that there is nothing left in the car.

The fuel will then be pumped back into the car, which will then be weighed for a third time, after which point the fuel hatch and QD (quick disconnect) will be sealed so no fuel can be added or removed.

So it is the same fuel collected in the collector which is put back

It depends what is meant by “collector”.

I think it’s the collector that is part of the fuel system. The lift pump(s) that extract fuel from the fuel tank move it to the collector and it then is extracted from the car. In normal use the fuel in the collector is transferred to the high pressure pump that supplies the injectors.

You think it’s an external container into which the fuel that is extracted is placed.

For a picture of the fuel system with collector see the 2021 technical regs §6.6.1

https://www.fia.com/file/105636/download/29731

Depending on the sizing of the lift pumps this could be quite a lengthy procedure. In service use they need only provide fuel to the collector at 100kg/hr, so even if oversized 3 times that’s over 20mins.

The 'picture' of the fuel system with collector for 2021 technical regs 6.6.1 is a different fuel system that the one used up to this past season. I do not believe that draining fuel from the fuel tank is done by the lift-pumps. If before draining the fuel from the fuel tank the 'ignition' had been switched on (lift pumps activated), draining the fuel tank will not drain the collector. the collector can only be drained by running the engine out-of-fuel.

The only difference between the 2021 system and the one you imagine is current is the primer pump. The “collector” is in both systems.

How do you think the draining is done? As I understand it the fuel cells are multi chambered with surge baffles creating the need for multiple pick up points. Do you think the fuel is extracted by a separate system connected to the lift pump pick up points?

You’re right that empty would be when the running engine is out of fuel and stops. But as I’ve noted above being physically empty is not an issue since any residue would be there before and after the race. Also running out of fuel is not an option because after the race and cool down there has to be 1kg available for FIA checks.

[saviour stivala]

There is no multi-pick-up systems but multi-pick -up pumps (3 or 4 are used) in the system and the current fuel system used (pressured collector pot) is not what I imagine it to be but as described by an ex-Williams engineer.

[dans79]

At the end we are all speculating here, so please, let's stop trying to put down other's evidence (which is also largely speculation).

I think a big part of the problem, is that people are quoting "evidence", but then not providing the source of that evidence for others to validate.