McLaren MCL35 Speculation Thread

[izzy]

they might not be going to totally sacrifice this year but changing to a Mercedes engine must mean quite a lot of extra work for 2021, with the different architecture, gearbox, cooling and everything.

I think the vast changes in technical regulations for 2021 will almost eliminate any added work normally associated with a PU switch. The deal was also made and announced unusually early, so initial prototyping will have the Mercedes PU firmly in mind.

yes i'm sure you're right, up to a point, but as you say they'll already be laying out the 2021 car and now they can't just look at the engine in their existing car and use all the little lessons they've learned from it. Normally every year the integration improves, it gets a bit more compact, reliable, accessible etc etc, less of a prototype, and now for 2021 they have to do it all just on what Mercedes gives them, and when. So for any given level of performance it's more work, trying to match the integration of a works team without actually having the engine or having run it. Are they taking the Merc gearbox too?

and then the 2021 car and engine is their big opportunity, they'll want to absolutely maximise hoping to make it a Big Four, so I think they will compromise this year. It can still be a good year of course, but 4th will do basically, and i bet the hot talents are on the 2021 team

[scarbs]

You’ve not heard of fractions then no?

Individual strands of hair range in thickness from 1/1500 to 1/500 of an inch in diameter

I reckon F1 teams use metric system as dimensions in technical rules are expressed in them. Who in the right mind would want to use fractions?

NAS Bolts are used in F1 with imperial measurements

[Maplesoup]

I reckon F1 teams use metric system as dimensions in technical rules are expressed in them. Who in the right mind would want to use fractions?

NAS Bolts are used in F1 with imperial measurements

I'd imagine that Nas will make bolts in metric measurements for the F1 teams if they want them.

And yes everything an F1 team do will use the metric system, all the teams are based in the UK and Europe.

[Xero]

Are they taking the Merc gearbox too?

They'll continue to use their own gearbox I'd imagine. McLaren Applied Technologies are investing heavily into transmission and energy storage/tech, would doubt they'd ever use anything else while that still happens.

[godlameroso]

Yep. A stronger, sleeker better designed gearbox gives more room for aero, better suspension geometry, better reliability, lower cooling requirements, which further creates space for aero. This fact also carrys over to 2021.

With a split turbo setup you can push the gearbox closer to the engine giving you more space for the diffuser. The 2017 McLaren chassis was so "good" partly because the Honda engine allowed more diffuser space. Comments from Norris who sampled both cars said the 2018 car was less consistent, perhaps because the 2018 car had to push the gearbox back a few cm, and that adapting it to the Renault engine took resources that could have been spent improving the case.

Partly why the 2019 car was such an improvement, was a large scale redesign, the tub, bargeboard philosophy, and transmission were all pretty much redesigned. What 2019 showed them was that they had the right idea, and another year of stability will certainly get them closer.

Ultimate aero performance can only be had with the split turbo setup, since the compressor is no longer occupying space and all it's intake plumbing, it gives you more leeway with the transmission shape.

Knowing this, it kind of makes sense why Mercedes went the route it did. The long wheelbase gives you more room for the bargeboards, and is a side effect of having to package the engine and fuel tank behind the driver. With the compressor and oil tank in the front it forces you to extend the wheel base to fit everything by a few cm. That a longer wheelbase is less pitch sensitive is another benefit, along with more room for the bargeboards.

Would that work with the McLaren? To have as short a transmission as a split turbo, with the turbo machinery, and oil tank and intake plumbing directly interfering with the volume, would be a monumental engineering feat.

[SmallSoldier]

Yep. A stronger, sleeker better designed gearbox gives more room for aero, better suspension geometry, better reliability, lower cooling requirements, which further creates space for aero. This fact also carrys over to 2021.

With a split turbo setup you can push the gearbox closer to the engine giving you more space for the diffuser. The 2017 McLaren chassis was so "good" partly because the Honda engine allowed more diffuser space. Comments from Norris who sampled both cars said the 2018 car was less consistent, perhaps because the 2018 car had to push the gearbox back a few cm, and that adapting it to the Renault engine took resources that could have been spent improving the case.

Partly why the 2019 car was such an improvement, was a large scale redesign, the tub, bargeboard philosophy, and transmission were all pretty much redesigned. What 2019 showed them was that they had the right idea, and another year of stability will certainly get them closer.

Ultimate aero performance can only be had with the split turbo setup, since the compressor is no longer occupying space and all it's intake plumbing, it gives you more leeway with the transmission shape.

Knowing this, it kind of makes sense why Mercedes went the route it did. The long wheelbase gives you more room for the bargeboards, and is a side effect of having to package the engine and fuel tank behind the driver. With the compressor and oil tank in the front it forces you to extend the wheel base to fit everything by a few cm. That a longer wheelbase is less pitch sensitive is another benefit, along with more room for the bargeboards.

Would that work with the McLaren? To have as short a transmission as a split turbo, with the turbo machinery, and oil tank and intake plumbing directly interfering with the volume, would be a monumental engineering feat.

The 2018 car was more instable than the 2017 because of the bargeboards not managing airflow as expected, it wasn’t because of the change from the Honda engine to the Renault engine allowing more diffuser area... You are speculating that and isn’t fact based.

I also disagree that “Ultimate Aero Performance” (which is I guess your own personal concept) has anything to do with the engine layout per se... It is well known that Red Bull had over the years the best if not one of the best chassis and aero on the grid and they did so with the Renault engine/layout.

The 2019 was a large scale redesign because of the rule changes really... The bargeboard area had to be redesigned because of the new regulations in regards to it’s height, the nose front wing of course had to be redesigned due to the new regulations while the nose was the same or an evolution of the 2018 one... The only major change for Mclaren was the location of the crash structures from top mounted to bottom mounted... But beyond that, the changes seemed to respond to the changes in the regulations.

[godlameroso]

Yep. A stronger, sleeker better designed gearbox gives more room for aero, better suspension geometry, better reliability, lower cooling requirements, which further creates space for aero. This fact also carrys over to 2021.

With a split turbo setup you can push the gearbox closer to the engine giving you more space for the diffuser. The 2017 McLaren chassis was so "good" partly because the Honda engine allowed more diffuser space. Comments from Norris who sampled both cars said the 2018 car was less consistent, perhaps because the 2018 car had to push the gearbox back a few cm, and that adapting it to the Renault engine took resources that could have been spent improving the case.

Partly why the 2019 car was such an improvement, was a large scale redesign, the tub, bargeboard philosophy, and transmission were all pretty much redesigned. What 2019 showed them was that they had the right idea, and another year of stability will certainly get them closer.

Ultimate aero performance can only be had with the split turbo setup, since the compressor is no longer occupying space and all it's intake plumbing, it gives you more leeway with the transmission shape.

Knowing this, it kind of makes sense why Mercedes went the route it did. The long wheelbase gives you more room for the bargeboards, and is a side effect of having to package the engine and fuel tank behind the driver. With the compressor and oil tank in the front it forces you to extend the wheel base to fit everything by a few cm. That a longer wheelbase is less pitch sensitive is another benefit, along with more room for the bargeboards.

Would that work with the McLaren? To have as short a transmission as a split turbo, with the turbo machinery, and oil tank and intake plumbing directly interfering with the volume, would be a monumental engineering feat.

The 2018 car was more instable than the 2017 because of the bargeboards not managing airflow as expected, it wasn’t because of the change from the Honda engine to the Renault engine allowing more diffuser area... You are speculating that and isn’t fact based.

I also disagree that “Ultimate Aero Performance” (which is I guess your own personal concept) has anything to do with the engine layout per se... It is well known that Red Bull had over the years the best if not one of the best chassis and aero on the grid and they did so with the Renault engine/layout.

The 2019 was a large scale redesign because of the rule changes really... The bargeboard area had to be redesigned because of the new regulations in regards to it’s height, the nose front wing of course had to be redesigned due to the new regulations while the nose was the same or an evolution of the 2018 one... The only major change for Mclaren was the location of the crash structures from top mounted to bottom mounted... But beyond that, the changes seemed to respond to the changes in the regulations.

You sure about that? The 2018 bargeboards were an evolution of the 2017 ones, which weren't as good as the other's to begin with.

Red Bull was able to have good chassis performance in spite of, not because of the power unit layout. This is evident by the large swings in performance they would have mid season, always playing catch up due to fixing issues with the chassis. Part of the reliability problems were due to extreme packaging Red Bull had to use to get the desired aero performance. McLaren's 2018 season was partly compromised by the cooling requirements of the Renault engine interfering with the cooling requirements of the gearbox. Issues which were largely addressed in 2019, and still again in 2020.

[ThePapayaJaguar]

Yep. A stronger, sleeker better designed gearbox gives more room for aero, better suspension geometry, better reliability, lower cooling requirements, which further creates space for aero. This fact also carrys over to 2021.

With a split turbo setup you can push the gearbox closer to the engine giving you more space for the diffuser. The 2017 McLaren chassis was so "good" partly because the Honda engine allowed more diffuser space. Comments from Norris who sampled both cars said the 2018 car was less consistent, perhaps because the 2018 car had to push the gearbox back a few cm, and that adapting it to the Renault engine took resources that could have been spent improving the case.

Partly why the 2019 car was such an improvement, was a large scale redesign, the tub, bargeboard philosophy, and transmission were all pretty much redesigned. What 2019 showed them was that they had the right idea, and another year of stability will certainly get them closer.

Ultimate aero performance can only be had with the split turbo setup, since the compressor is no longer occupying space and all it's intake plumbing, it gives you more leeway with the transmission shape.

Knowing this, it kind of makes sense why Mercedes went the route it did. The long wheelbase gives you more room for the bargeboards, and is a side effect of having to package the engine and fuel tank behind the driver. With the compressor and oil tank in the front it forces you to extend the wheel base to fit everything by a few cm. That a longer wheelbase is less pitch sensitive is another benefit, along with more room for the bargeboards.

Would that work with the McLaren? To have as short a transmission as a split turbo, with the turbo machinery, and oil tank and intake plumbing directly interfering with the volume, would be a monumental engineering feat.

The 2018 car was more instable than the 2017 because of the bargeboards not managing airflow as expected, it wasn’t because of the change from the Honda engine to the Renault engine allowing more diffuser area... You are speculating that and isn’t fact based.

I also disagree that “Ultimate Aero Performance” (which is I guess your own personal concept) has anything to do with the engine layout per se... It is well known that Red Bull had over the years the best if not one of the best chassis and aero on the grid and they did so with the Renault engine/layout.

The 2019 was a large scale redesign because of the rule changes really... The bargeboard area had to be redesigned because of the new regulations in regards to it’s height, the nose front wing of course had to be redesigned due to the new regulations while the nose was the same or an evolution of the 2018 one... The only major change for Mclaren was the location of the crash structures from top mounted to bottom mounted... But beyond that, the changes seemed to respond to the changes in the regulations.

Remember that Red Bull switched to Honda very late. This probably caused them to just make a decent and simple chassis that had room for aggressive development. Recent articles that I have seen show Christian Horner sending warnings to Mercedes suggesting that their new chassis will be very competitive.

Godlameroso is right that the Honda PU allows for more diffuser space. This is because Honda has one of the shortest PU's. On the topic of split turbo, having the exhaust turbine away from the compressor could also give some major benefits (not concentrating all the heat in one spot). You can reduce piping and wiring by placing the exhaust turbine close to the MGU-H too.

[Bill]

Rbr has the whole year to work on Honda pu that not very late. The decision to move to Honda was made in June that when most teams move resources to next year car.late is Brawn gp they had 2 weeks to fit an engine

[SmallSoldier]

Yep. A stronger, sleeker better designed gearbox gives more room for aero, better suspension geometry, better reliability, lower cooling requirements, which further creates space for aero. This fact also carrys over to 2021.

With a split turbo setup you can push the gearbox closer to the engine giving you more space for the diffuser. The 2017 McLaren chassis was so "good" partly because the Honda engine allowed more diffuser space. Comments from Norris who sampled both cars said the 2018 car was less consistent, perhaps because the 2018 car had to push the gearbox back a few cm, and that adapting it to the Renault engine took resources that could have been spent improving the case.

Partly why the 2019 car was such an improvement, was a large scale redesign, the tub, bargeboard philosophy, and transmission were all pretty much redesigned. What 2019 showed them was that they had the right idea, and another year of stability will certainly get them closer.

Ultimate aero performance can only be had with the split turbo setup, since the compressor is no longer occupying space and all it's intake plumbing, it gives you more leeway with the transmission shape.

Knowing this, it kind of makes sense why Mercedes went the route it did. The long wheelbase gives you more room for the bargeboards, and is a side effect of having to package the engine and fuel tank behind the driver. With the compressor and oil tank in the front it forces you to extend the wheel base to fit everything by a few cm. That a longer wheelbase is less pitch sensitive is another benefit, along with more room for the bargeboards.

Would that work with the McLaren? To have as short a transmission as a split turbo, with the turbo machinery, and oil tank and intake plumbing directly interfering with the volume, would be a monumental engineering feat.

The 2018 car was more instable than the 2017 because of the bargeboards not managing airflow as expected, it wasn’t because of the change from the Honda engine to the Renault engine allowing more diffuser area... You are speculating that and isn’t fact based.

I also disagree that “Ultimate Aero Performance” (which is I guess your own personal concept) has anything to do with the engine layout per se... It is well known that Red Bull had over the years the best if not one of the best chassis and aero on the grid and they did so with the Renault engine/layout.

The 2019 was a large scale redesign because of the rule changes really... The bargeboard area had to be redesigned because of the new regulations in regards to it’s height, the nose front wing of course had to be redesigned due to the new regulations while the nose was the same or an evolution of the 2018 one... The only major change for Mclaren was the location of the crash structures from top mounted to bottom mounted... But beyond that, the changes seemed to respond to the changes in the regulations.

You sure about that? The 2018 bargeboards were an evolution of the 2017 ones, which weren't as good as the other's to begin with.

Red Bull was able to have good chassis performance in spite of, not because of the power unit layout. This is evident by the large swings in performance they would have mid season, always playing catch up due to fixing issues with the chassis. Part of the reliability problems were due to extreme packaging Red Bull had to use to get the desired aero performance. McLaren's 2018 season was partly compromised by the cooling requirements of the Renault engine interfering with the cooling requirements of the gearbox. Issues which were largely addressed in 2019, and still again in 2020.

Red Bull managed to have the best aero performance of arguably the whole grid (given that they were using what wasn’t the most powerful engine at the time) with the current Renault engine layout... Which disproves that you can’t achieve best of the grid performance with that engine layout.


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[Maritimer]

NAS Bolts are used in F1 with imperial measurements

I'd imagine that Nas will make bolts in metric measurements for the F1 teams if they want them.

And yes everything an F1 team do will use the metric system, all the teams are based in the UK and Europe.

Considering the inch is exactly 25.4mm, you could have middle school kids do the conversion. It's not some engineering feat to find one from the other, or to use both systems in a given project. Having standard fasteners isn't going to bring things to a screeching halt because their length is given in metric or what have you.

[godlameroso]

The 2018 car was more instable than the 2017 because of the bargeboards not managing airflow as expected, it wasn’t because of the change from the Honda engine to the Renault engine allowing more diffuser area... You are speculating that and isn’t fact based.

I also disagree that “Ultimate Aero Performance” (which is I guess your own personal concept) has anything to do with the engine layout per se... It is well known that Red Bull had over the years the best if not one of the best chassis and aero on the grid and they did so with the Renault engine/layout.

The 2019 was a large scale redesign because of the rule changes really... The bargeboard area had to be redesigned because of the new regulations in regards to it’s height, the nose front wing of course had to be redesigned due to the new regulations while the nose was the same or an evolution of the 2018 one... The only major change for Mclaren was the location of the crash structures from top mounted to bottom mounted... But beyond that, the changes seemed to respond to the changes in the regulations.

You sure about that? The 2018 bargeboards were an evolution of the 2017 ones, which weren't as good as the other's to begin with.

Red Bull was able to have good chassis performance in spite of, not because of the power unit layout. This is evident by the large swings in performance they would have mid season, always playing catch up due to fixing issues with the chassis. Part of the reliability problems were due to extreme packaging Red Bull had to use to get the desired aero performance. McLaren's 2018 season was partly compromised by the cooling requirements of the Renault engine interfering with the cooling requirements of the gearbox. Issues which were largely addressed in 2019, and still again in 2020.

Red Bull managed to have the best aero performance of arguably the whole grid (given that they were using what wasn’t the most powerful engine at the time) with the current Renault engine layout... Which disproves that you can’t achieve best of the grid performance with that engine layout.


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Strong words, this is the McLaren topic, I'll only say that Red Bull's 2018 performance was flattered by circumstances. They earned every win they got, what I mean is yes they had a good chassis, and the weakest link in their chassis performance was always the Renault engine. That is what failed. Why did it fail? Because Red Bull designed their own cooling and rear end, which wasn't always compatible with the limits of the Renault machine. Which is why I say their performance was in spite of, and not because of the Renault engine.

What we have seen in 2019 is that the Red Bull had more than adequate cooling for everything and nothing broke this year, despite this conservative approach they still surpassed 2018's chassis performance. 2020 will be even better as they will push things more to the limit for the aero performance it brings.

Yes McLaren will certainly be better, but I maintain that if you go too extreme with the rear end, the Ferrari/Renault layout has more trouble dealing with it, than a split turbo setup. In 2019 the Ferrari/Renault layout had the lowest chassis performance, the Ferrari/Renault layout did much better on drag limited circuits vs downforce limited circuits. McLaren did very well, and has a chance to make another big step, this is obvious. However with a Mercedes power unit with a split turbo setup they have a chance to take an even bigger step.

If McLaren were happy with what was possible with Renault they would have stayed, because the Renault power unit is now relatively on par with the others, and will be even better in 2020.

[SmallSoldier]

You sure about that? The 2018 bargeboards were an evolution of the 2017 ones, which weren't as good as the other's to begin with.

Red Bull was able to have good chassis performance in spite of, not because of the power unit layout. This is evident by the large swings in performance they would have mid season, always playing catch up due to fixing issues with the chassis. Part of the reliability problems were due to extreme packaging Red Bull had to use to get the desired aero performance. McLaren's 2018 season was partly compromised by the cooling requirements of the Renault engine interfering with the cooling requirements of the gearbox. Issues which were largely addressed in 2019, and still again in 2020.

Red Bull managed to have the best aero performance of arguably the whole grid (given that they were using what wasn’t the most powerful engine at the time) with the current Renault engine layout... Which disproves that you can’t achieve best of the grid performance with that engine layout.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Strong words, this is the McLaren topic, I'll only say that Red Bull's 2018 performance was flattered by circumstances. They earned every win they got, what I mean is yes they had a good chassis, and the weakest link in their chassis performance was always the Renault engine. That is what failed. Why did it fail? Because Red Bull designed their own cooling and rear end, which wasn't always compatible with the limits of the Renault machine. Which is why I say their performance was in spite of, and not because of the Renault engine.

What we have seen in 2019 is that the Red Bull had more than adequate cooling for everything and nothing broke this year, despite this conservative approach they still surpassed 2018's chassis performance. 2020 will be even better as they will push things more to the limit for the aero performance it brings.

Yes McLaren will certainly be better, but I maintain that if you go too extreme with the rear end, the Ferrari/Renault layout has more trouble dealing with it, than a split turbo setup. In 2019 the Ferrari/Renault layout had the lowest chassis performance, the Ferrari/Renault layout did much better on drag limited circuits vs downforce limited circuits. McLaren did very well, and has a chance to make another big step, this is obvious. However with a Mercedes power unit with a split turbo setup they have a chance to take an even bigger step.

If McLaren were happy with what was possible with Renault they would have stayed, because the Renault power unit is now relatively on par with the others, and will be even better in 2020.

Getting back the topic towards Mclaren... In regards to them changing from Renault to Mercedes, I don’t think they are “unhappy” with the Renault engine... Simply put, the Mercedes engine has been the benchmark of the hybrid era and the overall best engine in the grid... Yes, Ferrari may have had more power last year, but it also seemed to be more “thirsty” than the Mercedes.

If Mclaren had the opportunity to get the Mercedes engine, it would have been really silly to not take it... It isn’t about been happy or not, it’s just the best overall engine in the grid and manufactured by a team that has showed to constantly push the boundaries so a fair expectation that they will maintain their status in the future.

Furthermore, there is still concern that Renault may pull from F1 at some point if their results don’t improve soon and/or if the new board decides that it doesn’t make sense to continue in F1 regardless of their sporting results... Moving to Mercedes just gives them that confidence in regards to future supply, reliability, etc... The fact that it may be better packaged (which I don’t know if it is or isn’t) is probably just a bonus to an overall great deal.


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[Ground Effect]

You sure about that? The 2018 bargeboards were an evolution of the 2017 ones, which weren't as good as the other's to begin with.

Red Bull was able to have good chassis performance in spite of, not because of the power unit layout. This is evident by the large swings in performance they would have mid season, always playing catch up due to fixing issues with the chassis. Part of the reliability problems were due to extreme packaging Red Bull had to use to get the desired aero performance. McLaren's 2018 season was partly compromised by the cooling requirements of the Renault engine interfering with the cooling requirements of the gearbox. Issues which were largely addressed in 2019, and still again in 2020.

Red Bull managed to have the best aero performance of arguably the whole grid (given that they were using what wasn’t the most powerful engine at the time) with the current Renault engine layout... Which disproves that you can’t achieve best of the grid performance with that engine layout.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Strong words, this is the McLaren topic, I'll only say that Red Bull's 2018 performance was flattered by circumstances. They earned every win they got, what I mean is yes they had a good chassis, and the weakest link in their chassis performance was always the Renault engine. That is what failed. Why did it fail? Because Red Bull designed their own cooling and rear end, which wasn't always compatible with the limits of the Renault machine. Which is why I say their performance was in spite of, and not because of the Renault engine.

What we have seen in 2019 is that the Red Bull had more than adequate cooling for everything and nothing broke this year, despite this conservative approach they still surpassed 2018's chassis performance. 2020 will be even better as they will push things more to the limit for the aero performance it brings.

Yes McLaren will certainly be better, but I maintain that if you go too extreme with the rear end, the Ferrari/Renault layout has more trouble dealing with it, than a split turbo setup. In 2019 the Ferrari/Renault layout had the lowest chassis performance, the Ferrari/Renault layout did much better on drag limited circuits vs downforce limited circuits. McLaren did very well, and has a chance to make another big step, this is obvious. However with a Mercedes power unit with a split turbo setup they have a chance to take an even bigger step.

If McLaren were happy with what was possible with Renault they would have stayed, because the Renault power unit is now relatively on par with the others, and will be even better in 2020.

We can’t be sure the Renault engine will be better in 2020, we can only speculate/hope

[godlameroso]

Red Bull managed to have the best aero performance of arguably the whole grid (given that they were using what wasn’t the most powerful engine at the time) with the current Renault engine layout... Which disproves that you can’t achieve best of the grid performance with that engine layout.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Strong words, this is the McLaren topic, I'll only say that Red Bull's 2018 performance was flattered by circumstances. They earned every win they got, what I mean is yes they had a good chassis, and the weakest link in their chassis performance was always the Renault engine. That is what failed. Why did it fail? Because Red Bull designed their own cooling and rear end, which wasn't always compatible with the limits of the Renault machine. Which is why I say their performance was in spite of, and not because of the Renault engine.

What we have seen in 2019 is that the Red Bull had more than adequate cooling for everything and nothing broke this year, despite this conservative approach they still surpassed 2018's chassis performance. 2020 will be even better as they will push things more to the limit for the aero performance it brings.

Yes McLaren will certainly be better, but I maintain that if you go too extreme with the rear end, the Ferrari/Renault layout has more trouble dealing with it, than a split turbo setup. In 2019 the Ferrari/Renault layout had the lowest chassis performance, the Ferrari/Renault layout did much better on drag limited circuits vs downforce limited circuits. McLaren did very well, and has a chance to make another big step, this is obvious. However with a Mercedes power unit with a split turbo setup they have a chance to take an even bigger step.

If McLaren were happy with what was possible with Renault they would have stayed, because the Renault power unit is now relatively on par with the others, and will be even better in 2020.

We can’t be sure the Renault engine will be better in 2020, we can only speculate/hope

It has to be better, otherwise you're going backwards.