Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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The first thing that would strike any independent looking into the economics of F1, is that 50% of the revenues goes straight to profiteers in some shape or form.

As for the standard engine proposal, agreed that it seems unfeasible with the big-budget manufacturers involved.
But remember, not that long ago there was the Cosworth V8 as pretty much the standard power-unit and I bet that you would have gotten a ship-load of units like that for today's value of 10 MEUR.

I think it all comes down to what FIA wish F1 to be, corporate or racing enthusiast.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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One eternal truth of F1 is the maximising of budget. This is particularly true of the automotive teams. My view is to let them spend their excess cash where it will not make a big impact on competitiveness but improve efficiency. If they are obliged to supply power limited engines at a fixed price to customers they may spend all their money to improve the engine efficiency. It will hurt nobody and help with research for road cars.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

axle
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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If they banned winter testing completely and only allowed a shakedown test a week before the first race. And ban launches until that weekend.

Money saved on the testing and the parts not made for the "prototypes" etc. More time in gestation on CFD.

Then allow testing on the Thursday/Friday all day throughout the season. Less transportation costs, no need for a seperate test team.
- Axle

CMSMJ1
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Look..guys.. Why are we to decide what a company can or cannot spend on racing some cars?

All this talk of ban this and ban that is just anathema to the sport of F1.

It is a meritocracy and rewards success only.

If the money is there to be spent, let it be spent. We cannot control the spending of our own governments and we are supposed to have a mandate to be able to affect that!

If F1 has spun itself into a hole then so be it - it will suffer and it will learn to play according to it's means.

I am going bike racing next year and although I expect to be able to do well, I don't expect to win much as the front running people have more talent for starters and more will to spend more money that I do for mag wheels, engine blueprinting etc.
I know I don't expect the organisers to create some rules to disadvantage my competitors..I expect that if i want to play in the big boys game..then I have to behave like a big boy and get my money out.

Some of the excesses are too much, I agree. Things where the teams can produce multi million pound packages for one race is really taking the mickey..but nothing stops other people doing it. Who wants to win most? Who is willing to put the effort and the money in?

Let the cream rise to the top. The money will always be spent if you have it and you want to win. No amount of rule changes ever change that.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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CMSMJ1 wrote:If the money is there to be spent, let it be spent. We cannot control the spending of our own governments and we are supposed to have a mandate to be able to affect that!

If F1 has spun itself into a hole then so be it - it will suffer and it will learn to play according to it's means.

I am going bike racing next year and although I expect to be able to do well, I don't expect to win much as the front running people have more talent for starters and more will to spend more money that I do for mag wheels, engine blueprinting etc.
I know I don't expect the organisers to create some rules to disadvantage my competitors..I expect that if i want to play in the big boys game..then I have to behave like a big boy and get my money out.

Some of the excesses are too much, I agree. Things where the teams can produce multi million pound packages for one race is really taking the mickey..but nothing stops other people doing it. Who wants to win most? Who is willing to put the effort and the money in?

Let the cream rise to the top. The money will always be spent if you have it and you want to win. No amount of rule changes ever change that.
The money is not there... that is why the teams and every other f1 official keep talking about cost cutting.

F1 is already in a hole(lost how many teams over the last couple years?) and cost cutting is what they are doing to live within their means.

We are only discussing the cost cutting we as fans feel would effect the sport the least(or benefit it the most).

Conceptual
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Simple really, make the chassis run 2 seasons. The overhead of overlapping development alone would save billions across the pit-lane.

timbo
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Conceptual wrote:Simple really, make the chassis run 2 seasons. The overhead of overlapping development alone would save billions across the pit-lane.
They would just introduce a revolutionary design every two years. I don't think there can be much cost reduction.
I think other than budget restriction, there's no effective way to cut costs. Fixed price for drivetrain and some standart components may help partly, but still if people want to spend, they spend.
Maybe F1 as a business should be overhauled. FOTA must have control on the money FOM accumulates, also I think that money from TV-broadcasts must be devided equally between teams (not like in current scheme where leading teams get most). Communism? Yes, but not more than any standart part or engine equalisation.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Maybe there are only three or four teams that can invest over 200 millions, I think that's the idea, we're not talking communism here.

It's the problem of capitalism: either you have a low cost of entry to the market or you end "with only three fishes in the pond".

There is always the danger of a monopoly in F1 because the cost of entry is high

Thus, besides the big-three firms that "free" markets usually develop, the other 8 or 9 necessary to complete the grid can only survive if you provide them with an "economic oxygen bottle".

Cut cost ideas have to be related somehow with numbers, aint' it?

I'll invest 10 minutes learning about economics of F1, so don't expect any good conclusions.

So, here you have some numbers I found (totally "Wikipedish"), waiting for more input from the forum:

The title of this graph could be: "Damn. The engine budget is very large."
Image

I'm hit by that graph. If true.

This is a crazy cost budget. 50% for engines and 8% for R&D and 8% for construction.

Drivers cost almost as much as the entire racing team.

The research and construction budget is as large as the "loan-shark" costs (so called "capital financing"). Caramba.

Again, the test team costs almost as much as the racing team.

The paddock (sponsor chasing) costs you half as much as the cars.

Conclusions:

This is a bussiness where the cost of opportunity of the money is high (capital financing), compared with the salaries.

The cost of selling (sponsor chasing) is very high. It seems like car sellers at its worst.

The actual manufacturing money of the "tub" is insignificant, compared with the money it costs to build an engine.

It makes me think that we're always claiming in this forum how important is that F1 exists, because it means engineering development, but those R&D figures are more or less standard for any industry.

The idea is that the crux of money spent is the damn engines. You're, essentially, selling engines.

It's really interesting from an "engineering standpoint": it's what you could call "the economics of the abuse".

I mean, the abuse of machinery. Essentially, you're spending your money on engines that are designed to last a mere 700 km or so.

The output power you get, you get it at a very high "engineering cost". There is a direct, steep relationship between the wear rate of the machine and its output.

So, from an engineer "ideal position", if you can burn your money faster than your opponent, you win.

This graphic is screaming to me: if you want to cut costs, use higher displacement engines at less load (rpm).

Or a radically different engine with a high weight-to-power output and low cost (yeah, keep dreaming).

I've just talked about a graph (not very well sourced, btw) on how money is spent.

I don't know if someone has the time (and the figures) to talk about where the money comes from (the income budget). That would be nice.
Ciro

modbaraban
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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That graph is shocking, Ciro.

How about:

1. Limit fuel per race, any engine allowed (promote fuel efficiency).
2. Why not use roadcar-derived engines with the limited amount of modifications like in other types of racing?

PS: oh, and 3. Disallow Jenson Button change his helmet until it wears out comepletely :)

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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modbaraban wrote:That graph is shocking, Ciro.

How about:

1. Limit fuel per race, any engine allowed (promote fuel efficiency).
2. Why not use roadcar-derived engines with the limited amount of modifications like in other types of racing?

PS: oh, and 3. Disallow Jenson Button change his helmet until it wears out comepletely :)
The problem with any engine allowed is that different tracks call for different engine characteristics... what is to keep a team to run a V-12 for monza and a v-8 for Monaco,Singapore?... and then you need different chassis to accomodate the different engines, and then what about gearboxes and the list goes on and on.

Roadcar engines would be cool, but what engine do all the manufacterers have in common? Especially Ferrari who only produce V8's & V-12's. Zee germans make big displacement v-8's while the japanese make small ones, engine equivilencies are for sports car racing not for formula racing.

I love the idea of 1.5 liter turbo'd v-6's.... but would Ferrari ever agree?

modbaraban
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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ISLAMATRON wrote:The problem with any engine allowed is that different tracks call for different engine characteristics... what is to keep a team to run a V-12 for monza and a v-8 for Monaco,Singapore?...
A simple rule to list the things that can't be modified during the season i.e. 'engine layout freeze' if you like.
ISLAMATRON wrote:I love the idea of 1.5 liter turbo'd v-6's.... but would Ferrari ever agree?
That's the problem. Let them stick to their V12 and V8s, while the Japanese go with turbocharged hybrid R4s and the French go with the turbocharged V6 diesels etc.

- probably less money spent
- definitely money well spent
- good PR too

PS: Gordon Murray inverview on the subject for german or russian speaking members.

timbo
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Interesting graph! Quite a few thoughts on it - in early 90's people made jokes about huge budget of Ferrari and low yield they have. Now we can see that to be able to compete financially with McLaren Honda and Williams Renault, they had to have twice the budget effectively... However, I think that graph was true say up to 2007 for obvious reason. That is true that engine budget is huge, but as far as I can remember Max Mosley named a figure of 30 mil pounds, still a big chunk of money nonetheless.
But, Ciro, you've made an example with a 30% of system always accomodating to be non-profitable. I believe this will work the same if you would dramatically decrease engine cost.
Why I proposed equal shares on TV revenues, think of Super Agury situation. Now imagine if they were guarantied a substantial payment at the end of the year (now I don't know how much, but last year the were numbers how much McLaren would lose because of the exclusion from championship, and that was a significant sum of money) - they would be able to take a credit and cover a part of it with that money, stay on track and search for sponsors all year.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Yes, timbo is right, the graph could not reflect the current situation, but it's the best I got.

I think modbaraban is also right about many series buying standard engines, essentially that's the situation planned by FIA, I don't think they're suggesting sealed engines (yet).

Sorry for posting again but I thought about this all the time while writing the previous post and somehow I forgot in the end:

It would be interesting if you could speculate how it would be for teams to have a budget capped at 150 million (I think that's the figure mentioned by Mosley, before talks).

Compare that with the 500 million Toyota or Ferrari spend now.

How would they adapt to a radically smaller budget?

Ugly pit babes and 1/3rd of the salary for drivers or what?
Ciro

timbo
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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Ciro Pabón wrote:How would they adapt to a radically smaller budget?

Ugly pit babes and 1/3rd of the salary for drivers or what?
I think one can answer this question by comparing top-teams with back-makers. To me the biggest difference is the ongoing developement. Remember how several times, teams like Minardi, or most resently Super Agury would have some solid results at the start of the season and the fall behind a competition as season progressed. Bear in mind that $7 mil. figure that Ron named, bein' spent on 0.15 s gain for Lewis in Brazil. So I think with budget cap we won't see many updates over the course of the season.

Drivers' fees would also be cut I guess, however, top-drivers may make up that difference by attrackting more direct sponsorship probably.

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Re: Ideas to cut costs in F1

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Old this one, but pretty good anyway;

If FIA should put a limit on the wingspan of all the private jets involved, that would surely save a bundle.

But seriously, to somehow put limits to money spent on meaningless fine-tuning of aerodynamics in full-scale wind-tunnels would be a very good start.
Flat-bottoms as long as the car is car (easy to police that), would make rolling-ground tunnels obsolete and give a following car a better tow on the straight, which I think very often is the key to overtaking, no?.

As for the loss of front-end downforce in overtaking, never quite understood that really, when you need to be side-by-side to do it anyway? Compare to possibly the greatest F1 race ever, Monza in 1971, they didn't even have front wings and certainly no ground effect, but long straights, plenty of tow and overtaking en masse.
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