Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[izzy]

you are in favour of adding a facility to a vehicle that will possibly be used by 0.0001٪ of the population once or twice in their entire driving lives..?

well, a motor on each hub, that can apply any torque positive or negative, instantly... tank turn could be great on a supermini in a car park, or on your drive so you don't have to reverse out, and you can steer with it, brake the inside while you power the outside, have the most traction literally possible, control the balance actively...

once a vehicle is electric, it's a whole new world. if the brakes are on the same pedal as the power, you could have a sports car with a separate pedal for the left and right side wheels <eek> On a 1-10 scale of viability, that's an easy 11 . i mean roundabouts...

[strad]

But just so I've got this straight, you are now in favour of EV's because you once had to reverse 5 miles and 'tank steer' might have helped in that particular situation?

No Way...It's just a neat trick that it can do.
I'm able to juggle but I never wanted to run off and join the circus.
And just to be clear I could back a 40' container from here to Portland but that does not mean I want to.

[AJI]

you are in favour of adding a facility to a vehicle that will possibly be used by 0.0001٪ of the population once or twice in their entire driving lives..?

well, a motor on each hub, that can apply any torque positive or negative, instantly... tank turn could be great on a supermini in a car park, or on your drive so you don't have to reverse out, and you can steer with it, brake the inside while you power the outside, have the most traction literally possible, control the balance actively...

once a vehicle is electric, it's a whole new world. if the brakes are on the same pedal as the power, you could have a sports car with a separate pedal for the left and right side wheels <eek> On a 1-10 scale of viability, that's an easy 11 . i mean roundabouts...

Wow, we've progressed pretty quickly from EV's being elegantly simple machines which are facsimiles of what we are currently used to for an easy transition, to requiring a motor on each wheel and new driving/parking techniques.
I guess 'tank turn' will be good for rubber plantations and tyre manufacturers. Not really super helpful for the 'green' argument, but at least everyone will be able to drive like Ken Block.

[strad]

but at least everyone will be able to drive like Ken Block.

I doooon't think so.

[AJI]

But just so I've got this straight, you are now in favour of EV's because you once had to reverse 5 miles and 'tank steer' might have helped in that particular situation?

No Way...It's just a neat trick that it can do.

Hey, and I can reverse a b-double, but let's not compare appendages here...

'neat trick' is exactly what tank steer is, and that's all I'm trying to get across. I previously said BEV's were a one trick pony with the 0-100 in 0.0003 of a microsecond trick. Now, some of them, are a two trick pony!

[AJI]

but at least everyone will be able to drive like Ken Block.

I doooon't think so.

Okay, perform a dangerously impressive manoeuvre with very little effort then

[strad]

I doooon't think so... You give the average Joe too much credit.

[3jawchuck]

but at least everyone will be able to drive like Ken Block.

I doooon't think so.

Yeah, that's a but unfair to the average guy on the road.

[AJI]

I doooon't think so... You give the average Joe too much credit.

True. Most people don't know where the indicator lever is. The tank turn button will require next level button awareness!

[Andres125sx]

But is that any different from a 500hp ICE SUV? ...

Yes and no. It's just a function of torque translated into 0-100 time for marketing. My Audi Q7 has 800Nm of torque, but only 250kW of power. It has a 6.4 second 0-100 time and let's be serious, that is properly fast, but Audi don't promote the 0-100 time, they promote the torque, because it's an SUV and it'll tow massive loads all day long.

Well, Audi promote that same as Rivian, none is using it as their main point, but both are installing motor/engine much much more powerful than really needed and using that excess of power as a factor

Context Andres. How many vehicles currently have 'tank turn'? None, because there are ways around the problem. Reverse works just fine on my car, but proper navigation works much better. I'll give you that tank turn may be useful on a very odd occasion, but how often do you actually need it? This goes back to my 'do we need blah, blah, blah rant', so I ask again, do we actually need it?

I can see we're going to go around in circles on this and that's my main fear. You and me are actually on the same page, but we argue about the stupid stuff.

[/quote]


Tank turn will be specially usefull for extreme off-road use, on your Q7 it will be useless I´m afraid . If it didn´t exist before was because it´s not possible with an ICE to spin opposites wheels in opposite directions. Same as stability control can´t be as good with an ICE as it can be with four electric motors controlling each wheel (both brakes and power) independently. It´s something new only possible thanks to the four electric motors

Anycase I agree it will be usefull for odd ocasions, but if they´re using one motor per wheel they can do it for free, so no point to reject a free lunch

There are a lot of stupid stuff I will agree with you, but tank turn is not one of them, when I was a hunter years ago I found myself on situations where tank turn would have been awesome more than once or twice, period, if it does not have an extra cost, any reason to not include it?

[AJI]

Tank turn will be specially usefull for extreme off-road use

Well, I did actually say that. That 0.00001% of the population will love it.

on your Q7 it will be useless I´m afraid

You've obviously never seen a Q7 off road... They may be not have a true low range or diff locks, but they have an excellent traction control system, ground clearance that a LandCruiser can only dream of and raw grunt. I've embarrassed more than a few people now in my pretty 'pretend' 4WD...

While we're talking about stupid capabilities like tank turn, look up Q7 vs. anything in a tug-of-war.

[izzy]

Wow, we've progressed pretty quickly from EV's being elegantly simple machines which are facsimiles of what we are currently used to for an easy transition, to requiring a motor on each wheel and new driving/parking techniques.
I guess 'tank turn' will be good for rubber plantations and tyre manufacturers. Not really super helpful for the 'green' argument, but at least everyone will be able to drive like Ken Block.

Well we can have simple ones and ones that are a new level of awesome. We're just waiting for a better battery aren't we really. Apparently Jaguar have run out of them i was reading

[AJI]

We're just waiting for a better battery aren't we really.

Ahh, the crux of the BEV problem, and I think one of the main reasons for strad creating this topic. The new, proper liquid hydrocarbon replacement, wonderful, does it all, certified battery!

[Andres125sx]

I've also used a Peugeot 206 for off-road, even while towing 3 bikes and went through paths some people wouldn't dare with his SUV, but that does not mean it's an off road car

A Q7 is better for it's higher ground clearance, but that's all, apart from that it's a 100% road vehicle

So you're assuming off-road cars are only for 0.00001% of population? Sorry but disagree, off road fans, hunters, anyone who practice climbing or wild animals photography or studies, infrastructure maintenance, people who live or own a house on rural areas without roads... There a lots of people who need a real off road car

Sorry to say this, but the lack of usefulness you're criticizing to the Rivian IMHO is much better suited to your own Q7 than it is to Rivian. Rivian is a similar car (luxury SUV) but much more capable off-road because of the higher ground clearance, better attack angles, higher wading, better traction control (full control of each wheel independently), tank steer, higher profile tires (a must for real off-road use)...

Actually I find it a bit ironic a Q7 owner criticizing Rivian and asking if we actually need what it offers... Do you need a 5m long, 2 tons, 80k$ Q7? No, but that's what you own. Rivian is a similar car, with similar price, for similar use, but with more capabilities

[Andres125sx]

While we're talking about stupid capabilities like tank turn, look up Q7 vs. anything in a tug-of-war.

Q7 up to 900Nm with a good TC
Rivian 1200Nm with a perfect TC

What do you think will win?