Mercedes W11

[turbof1]

I think a TD will not cut it in this instance. A rule change will be needed. They did so first in 2012 (which only partially worked and resulted in coanda-exhausts) and then in 2014 (which was much more effective, but up to this day teams still use the smallest bit of exhaust blowing).

Which has already been done for 2021 (previously mentioned in this thread). There's literally no point in discussing the legality of this system as it's been given the green light by the FIA. They've tigthened the regs up for next season which effectively is an endorsement of the system for this season and an admission that there was a "gap" in the current regs that allow it exist.

Well there's always a chance a team will protest and it ending up in front of the fia tribunal. Is this going to turn it illegal? Very unlikely given the current opinion of the fia, but you can't know for sure.

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

[OO7]

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

I think if the steering wheel position remained constant (fixed) while the toe angle varied, an argument could perhaps be made that the set-up has changed, but because the toe angle change is proportional to steering movement, it is essentially a steering command not a set-up change.

[Xwang]

I think a TD will not cut it in this instance. A rule change will be needed. They did so first in 2012 (which only partially worked and resulted in coanda-exhausts) and then in 2014 (which was much more effective, but up to this day teams still use the smallest bit of exhaust blowing).

Which has already been done for 2021 (previously mentioned in this thread). There's literally no point in discussing the legality of this system as it's been given the green light by the FIA. They've tigthened the regs up for next season which effectively is an endorsement of the system for this season and an admission that there was a "gap" in the current regs that allow it exist.

Well there's always a chance a team will protest and it ending up in front of the fia tribunal. Is this going to turn it illegal? Very unlikely given the current opinion of the fia, but you can't know for sure.

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

In that case they could prove it because if the on board video shows that the steering is pulled during the event, it is possible to reproduce that in the parc ferme and measure the toe change being the DAS a pure mechanical system (in the wing flexing case it is not possible to reproduce that when the car is under scrutiny).

[Xwang]

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

I think if the steering wheel position remained constant (fixed) while the toe angle varied, an argument could perhaps be made that the set-up has changed, but because the toe angle change is proportional to steering movement, it is essentially a steering command not a set-up change.

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

[i70q7m7ghw]

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

Turning the wheel on any car will also modify the toe angle. Sorry, try again.

[OO7]

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

I think if the steering wheel position remained constant (fixed) while the toe angle varied, an argument could perhaps be made that the set-up has changed, but because the toe angle change is proportional to steering movement, it is essentially a steering command not a set-up change.

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

I'd need to consult the sporting regs, but my guess is that it doesn't specifically mention toe.

[OO7]

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

Turning the wheel on any car will also modify the toe angle. Sorry, try again.

This is true. I'am assuming Xwang meant to include a statement like ("with the steering wheel in the straight ahead position.")

[i70q7m7ghw]

Turning the wheel on any car will also modify the toe angle. Sorry, try again.

This is true. I'am assuming Xwang meant to include a statement like ("with the steering wheel in the straight ahead position.")

Where in the rules does it require that though? If there's some sort of neutral position, you could argue straight ahead and pushed forward is the neutral position.

If you have to manipulate the steering to prove it's illegal... haven't you just proved it's legal?

[OO7]

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

Then again, Mercedes could use it anyway during qualifying -illegally- without the fia able to proof it, as they mentioned in the past video footage of for instance wing flexing is not enough.

I think if the steering wheel position remained constant (fixed) while the toe angle varied, an argument could perhaps be made that the set-up has changed, but because the toe angle change is proportional to steering movement, it is essentially a steering command not a set-up change.

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

Here are the relevant sporting regulations pertaining to Parc Ferme:
34.1 Every team must provide the FIA technical delegate with a suspension set-up sheet for both of their cars before each of them leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice session.

34.6 A competitor may not modify any part on the car or make changes to the set-up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc fermé conditions. In the case of a breach of this Article the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 36.2.

In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in pre-race parc fermé, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools.

[OO7]

Turning the wheel on any car will also modify the toe angle. Sorry, try again.

This is true. I'am assuming Xwang meant to include a statement like ("with the steering wheel in the straight ahead position.")

Where in the rules does it require that though? If there's some sort of neutral position, you could argue straight ahead and pushed forward is the neutral position.

If you have to manipulate the steering to prove it's illegal... haven't you just proved it's legal?

I agree with you Diesel. I hadn't consulted the sporting regs (and did mention that I doubted there was any reference to toe angle settings), so tried to think up a rule which would make the system illegal. I've now looked through the regs and per my initial thoughts on the matter, they make no reference specifically to toe setting, just "suspension".

[i70q7m7ghw]

I agree with you Diesel. I hadn't consulted the sporting regs (and did mention that I doubted there was any reference to toe angle settings), so tried to think up a rule which would make the system illegal. I've now looked through the regs and per my initial thoughts on the matter, they make no reference specifically to toe setting, just "suspension".

Yup, the more I read the regs, the more I realise how confident Mercedes are about it's legality. I almost wonder how nobody thought of it before!

[JordanMugen]

Adrian Newey's opinion about DAS: "Controlling the tyre temperatures is not enough for me. There must be aerodynamic reasons. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is legal. The driver doesn't steer the car when he pulls the steering wheel towards him or pushes it away."

Of all people, Newey would know steering is not defined in the rulebook apart from saying it may 'change the alignment of no more than two wheels'. Newey, much like some posters here, seems to be relying on a dictionary definition of steering, instead of the rulebook definition of steering which doesn't exist.

Second, Marc Priestley quoted an excellent point: the tyre toe could be seen as part of the car's setup, which is locked in during the parc fermé period, which does mean Mercedes is not legally able to use it during qualifying.

But toe angle changes all the time when steering the car during qualifying.

Turning the wheel on any car will also modify the toe angle. Sorry, try again.

Precisely! The "re-alignment" of no more than two wheels is specifically permitted when steering.

10.2 Suspension geometry :
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion.

10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

Rule 10.4.1 overrides rule 10.2.3. with respect to permitting the re-aligninment of no more than two wheels for steering.

It depends. If the parc ferme require that the differential toe is fixed during the parc ferme, then the system could be illegal because the steering command modifies a value that should not be modified during the parc ferme.

The suspension cannot be modified when the steering wheel is fixed which DAS complies with. DAS only modifies the orientation of the wheels when the steering wheel is being moved, which is permitted.

10.2.1 With the steering wheel fixed, the position of each wheel centre and the orientation of its
rotation axis must be completely and uniquely defined by a function of its principally
vertical suspension travel, save only for the effects of reasonable compliance which does
not intentionally provide further degrees of freedom.

[PlatinumZealot]

That rack thing makes absolutely no sense. How are you going to change the pitch when both gears need to mesh with the same racks, and even if you had offset teeth on each one, it'd never mesh cleanly, you'd have to wiggle the steering to get it into mesh every time you switched, and you'd need a gap between gears meshing so there'd be a spot in the middle where your steering would be pulled one direction.

Here you go my friend. (@Pierre something like this maybe)..

Just the basic below.. the internal gears will stop the sliding at either end.. however I think a locking mechanism would do the column well. The driver also has to hold his wheel firm when it is unlocked...

[Pyrone89]

And apparently it is pretty hard to copy as well.

-New crash test
-New suspension geometry if you are Red Bull and had just moved everything backward
-New stress analysis tests for all the parts involved

And it is banned next year. So you will be doing all this work for something that is obsoleet half a season later (if you can get it onto the car around Silverstone) at a time teams need to start thinking about next year a lot earlier than normal (so not waste time on difficult concepts that are banned 6 months later).

The best neutral F1 fans and fans of other teams can hope for is that it is not a game changer otherwise this season is over already.

[PhillipM]

Here you go my friend. (@Pierre something like this maybe)..

Just the basic below.. the internal gears will stop the sliding at either end.. however I think a locking mechanism would do the column well. The driver also has to hold his wheel firm when it is unlocked...

https://i.imgur.com/HyRmf7S.png

Yeah, that would work, as would a quill with an idler that changed the offset of the two gears, but both that and your design have the drive gears in constant mesh with the offset altered, not like the other design.