Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Tommy Cookers]

there is in 2 places stored energy that isn't counted by the electrical energy meters and accounting system rules ....

mechanical energy in the turbo/H system's rotational velocity

electrical energy stored internal to the 'controller' aka drive - this (was) limited by rule to .... was it 30 KJ ??
(this internal storage being essential to the controller aka drive's function)
use of the controllers internal energy store is anyway continuous - and it doesn't register on the DC line of course

(Honda telemetry showing DC line bursts of H generation pre-corner and of K motoring early in exit is a separate mechanism)

does anybody's eyeball tell them how much energy might be involved ? (in the conspicuous exhaust events now under discussion)

[godlameroso]

Not much if it's only happening for a split second. .7 .8 MJ maybe. Honda maybe can recover 30% of that. Not a huge number by itself, however over the course of a lap it could add another MJ to the ES over what they could last year.

[Bandit1216]

Using a sort of anti lag system for the sake harvesting energy when off throttle, seems sound to me. I doubt it to be used during race though, but could be a good party mode kind of thing. In quasi, only the flow restricts you, right. Not the fuel load.

Why not use a couple of hundred cc's to jet power the turbine off throttle, and store some energy. Energy that let's you use the mgh-h at the strait to power the compressor, and fully open the waste gate for less pumping losses at the turbine.

[dren]

I don't think it'd be for qualification since teams will have their batteries fully charged for the lap already.

[PlatinumZealot]

The reason why i say it is not primarily for antilag is this..
Antilag is to increase turbine speed and thus boost pressure.. That doesnt translate at all to MGUH.

In fact the MGUH is a load it self that slows down the turbine. Of course we are pumping energy into it to keep it at the optimimum speed..

And we dont need that much boost for such an aggressive anti-lag meassure. Notice the other teams arent doing it and we have tonnes of grip in F1. Even these cheese pirelli's they were burning up with the naturally aspirated engines out of the corners. We would be breaking driveshafts and burning thru tires like a barbeque with these boosted engines and K motors.

I really feel its mostly for ERS than anti-lag.

[saviour stivala]

Using a sort of anti lag system for the sake harvesting energy when off throttle, seems sound to me. I doubt it to be used during race though, but could be a good party mode kind of thing. In quasi, only the flow restricts you, right. Not the fuel load.

Why not use a couple of hundred cc's to jet power the turbine off throttle, and store some energy. Energy that let's you use the mgh-h at the strait to power the compressor, and fully open the waste gate for less pumping losses at the turbine.

So on the one hand it is suggested that fuel is burned in the exhaust ‘to jet power the turbine’ while on the other hand the waste-gate/s are opened to reduce back-pressure. Sounds like it have been forgotten that when waste-gate/s are opened the exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine and so not powering the turbine.

[etusch]

Combustion take place in the cylinder and gas goes out by spooling turbo. There must be back pressure in this condition too. If they use what we assumed, there will be more pressure on turbo. If they can handle pressure that occurs when ice working normal cycle I think they can handle this too.
In the other hand if there is such a system you can not think other part of engine as if there is not such a system out there.

[Bandit1216]

Using a sort of anti lag system for the sake harvesting energy when off throttle, seems sound to me. I doubt it to be used during race though, but could be a good party mode kind of thing. In quasi, only the flow restricts you, right. Not the fuel load.

Why not use a couple of hundred cc's to jet power the turbine off throttle, and store some energy. Energy that let's you use the mgh-h at the strait to power the compressor, and fully open the waste gate for less pumping losses at the turbine.

So on the one hand it is suggested that fuel is burned in the exhaust ‘to jet power the turbine’ while on the other hand the waste-gate/s are opened to reduce back-pressure. Sounds like it have been forgotten that when waste-gate/s are opened the exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine and so not powering the turbine.

At the strait. As in later on. At an other time.

[saviour stivala]

When waste-gate/s are open (party mode/free load mode) exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.

[etusch]

When waste-gate/s are open (party mode/free load mode) exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.

Are we talking about acceleration?

[saviour stivala]

I don’t see F1 waste-gates being opened other than when maximum power possible is called upon. I personally don’t think these waste-gates are being used to control turbo boost, I believe they are only used to relieve back pressure (bypass turbine).

[Bandit1216]

When waste-gate/s are open (party mode/free load mode) exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.

I mean harvesting in the corner/at breaking (that's why I first say "off throttle) and later on when you are on the strait you can use that energy in, what you call, free mode.

[Tommy Cookers]

....on the one hand it is suggested that fuel is burned in the exhaust ‘to jet power the turbine’ while on the other hand the waste-gate/s are opened to reduce back-pressure. Sounds like it have been forgotten that when waste-gate/s are opened the exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine and so not powering the turbine.

the turbine is significantly powered WGO by the exhaust pulse blowdown
(there's no 'backpressure'- mean exhaust pressure is 1 bar)
this is the 'free' power as used by 15000 airliner 'TurboCompound' engines before the jet airliner came along

couldn't some timed injection and/or skip-firing be used to increase pulse action ?
a stationary pulse-jet will produce thrust with intake pressure at 1 bar

[dren]

Not sure if this was posted here before, I know the Wright Engine was in the past.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... 0058/m1/1/

[saviour stivala]

When waste-gate/s are open (party mode/free load mode) exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.

I mean harvesting in the corner/at breaking (that's why I first say "off throttle) and later on when you are on the strait you can use that energy in, what you call, free mode.

When waste-gates are open on the present F1 power unit the exhaust gasses are bypassing the exhaust turbine and not just Reliving the exhaust turbine of some of its pressure (regulating the pressure). Harvesting by the 'H'. There cannot be any harvesting by the 'H' when waste-gates are open because no work is being done by the exhaust gasses on the turbine which powers the 'H'.