FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Just_a_fan]

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...

Patents are public documents with disclosure of what, how and why something does what it does. The FIA aren't protecting Ferrari's patents at all. And protecting Ferrari's patents is Ferrari's job, not the FIA's.

What the FIA is doing is trying to protect Ferrari's reputation and standing. Ferrari probably threatened to pull out, as they have so often in the past, and the FIA blinked first.

[Phil]

So they have gained 20% of efficiency and there is still 10% available (100cv).
IMHO there is still to extract half of what has been achieved with the hybrid era so it is plausible that others have a more powerful engine than Mercedes even without cheating.

I wouldn't be mixing numbers, e.g. thermal efficiency with hp numbers. Thermal efficiency concludes how much net output you are getting out of a fixed amount of energy. A higher HP output can be achieved by increasing the energy (i.e. within the fuel) without increasing the total efficiency of the package. Additives in oil for example does not increase thermal efficiency.

This all has nothing to do with this topic.

[DChemTech]

The FIA aren't stupid. If they released such a statement they are probably anticipated that there were going to be clowns trying to lead a protest with the intent of revealing what the settlement was. But I do understand Merc making this move, and have everyone looking into something which happened last year rather than focusing on what is going on at the moment.

I like how everyone praises Merc for the (very very borderline) DAS system but is totally convinced that Ferrari was doing something wrong last year for a statement that reveals absolutely nothing!

It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

Patents are public by construction, so that would not be it. It could be they are trying to protect a technology that Ferrari wants to keep secret, but as I stated before, they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized -without requiring any disclosure of technology. And certainly, in case of legality, there would be no ground for settlement or community service by Ferrari. So yes, all illegality is speculative, but the credence in my view is fully towards one of at least highly disputable if not illegal practices.

[the EDGE]

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

If that is the case then that’s what they should say rather than this bizarrely worded statement of theirs

And, as requested in the letter they need to clarify if Ferrari were or were not in breach of the rules

If there is technology that was not in breach of the rules that the FIA have agreed to keep quiet about however, then why did Ferrari suddenly lose all the power that they suddenly gained overnight?

This is not like The normal technical rules however where being ‘not illegal’ is classed as legal like flexing wings for example

Flexing wings will always happen so if you can make your wing flex right up to the limit of the test then your car is legal

There is a clear rule that says max fuel flow is 100kg/hour

If you find a way to use more than max flow of 100kg/hour you are still in violation of the rule even if you have managed to cheat the test

[Chene_Mostert]

It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

Patents are public by construction, so that would not be it. It could be they are trying to protect a technology that Ferrari wants to keep secret, but as I stated before, they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized -without requiring any disclosure of technology. And certainly, in case of legality, there would be no ground for settlement or community service by Ferrari. So yes, all illegality is speculative, but the credence in my view is fully towards one of at least highly disputable if not illegal practices.

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

[Xwang]

So they have gained 20% of efficiency and there is still 10% available (100cv).
IMHO there is still to extract half of what has been achieved with the hybrid era so it is plausible that others have a more powerful engine than Mercedes even without cheating.

I wouldn't be mixing numbers, e.g. thermal efficiency with hp numbers. Thermal efficiency concludes how much net output you are getting out of a fixed amount of energy. A higher HP output can be achieved by increasing the energy (i.e. within the fuel) without increasing the total efficiency of the package. Additives in oil for example does not increase thermal efficiency.

This all has nothing to do with this topic.

I was not the one that has started speaking of efficiency.
I already know what you are saying and the numbers where just to let someone have an idea of the jet to gain power at actual fuel energy values.
Moreover I remember that F1 rules put an upper limit to fuel energy level, so that it is possible to calculate a theoretical maximum power limit (as Mercedes every year does when the speak about their engines in terms of efficiency.

[DChemTech]

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

Patents are public by construction, so that would not be it. It could be they are trying to protect a technology that Ferrari wants to keep secret, but as I stated before, they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized -without requiring any disclosure of technology. And certainly, in case of legality, there would be no ground for settlement or community service by Ferrari. So yes, all illegality is speculative, but the credence in my view is fully towards one of at least highly disputable if not illegal practices.

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

Maybe you should reread my post. I did not say that "it's illegal because its not declared legal". What I said is that the way they chose to communicate things makes no sense to me in case it were legal, nor does the settlement. all parties would have been much better off simply stating the legality explicitly, and if necessary (although, as you say, not mandated) with some explanation at what was looked at and why technical details are not disclosed. Hence, my expectation, in light of these observations, is that of questionable legality. But I absolutely do not state that it -is- illegal or anything likewise, because again, all of that is speculative.

[Chene_Mostert]

Patents are public by construction, so that would not be it. It could be they are trying to protect a technology that Ferrari wants to keep secret, but as I stated before, they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized -without requiring any disclosure of technology. And certainly, in case of legality, there would be no ground for settlement or community service by Ferrari. So yes, all illegality is speculative, but the credence in my view is fully towards one of at least highly disputable if not illegal practices.

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

Maybe you should reread my post. I did not say that "it's illegal because its not declared legal". What I said is that the way they chose to communicate things makes no sense to me in case it were legal, nor does the settlement. all parties would have been much better off simply stating the legality explicitly, and if necessary (although, as you say, not mandated) with some explanation at what was looked at and why technical details are not disclosed. Hence, my expectation, in light of these observations, is that of questionable legality. But I absolutely do not state that it -is- illegal or anything likewise, because again, all of that is speculative.

Never said you are saying its illegal. you just assumed that.
I posted two counter arguments to the piece I quoted from your post:

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

[Xwang]

Is it possible that the secrecy part is to oblige the FIA (and their workers) to keep their mouth closed with money to be paid by Ferrari to FIA in case something comes out even in the future when someone passes from FIA to a team? Namely a properly NDA?

[Schumix]

What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.

Nobody is stupid in this political big fight story: the other teams are trying to understand what Ferrari is doing with his PU in order to copy it. This is F1 and things have always been like this. But I am sure 100% that the FIA will not reveal Ferrari trick.

More likely hoping to have it outlawed and thus prevent a spending spree. Or even to make the FIA admit that Ferrari cheated, and thus should be thrown out of 2019's results and the lower teams get to have more prize money instead.

Lots of reasons why the other teams want to know what the agreement is and why it's all being kept hidden. The fact that it's being hidden is enough to get people interested - that's not politics, that's human nature.

First, when the FIA finds something illegal, he issues a Technical Directive to all the teams clearly stating what is illegal.
In the second hand, and according to you, the FIA is supposed to communicate to the other teams the secrets of Ferrari PU?

It is clear that the FIA press release is not well writed. But there is not only interpretations of that press release which lead to suspect that Ferrari is cheating. There are other possible interpretations which indicate that Ferrari PU is legal. And we will find out the truth (Ferrari PU maximum output) very soon

[Noble29]

Surely the FIA not declaring something legal AND having to come up with an agreement/settlement means not everything is legal? Are we of the impression things have to be legal or illegal? Is there anywhere in between? As far as I'm concerned, if something can't be declared as legal, whilst also reaching a 'settlement' (why do you need a settlement if all is right and ok? I see mention of people stating others are coming up with fictitious events to suit an agenda, yet the same people seem to be running with 'the other teams are only doing it to gain information', there's equally no evidence of this yet here we are as it being the counter arguement) then something has to be wrong? Seems like common sense with all allegiances and affinity put aside...

[NathanOlder]

If the Ferrari was fully legal, the FIA would have said so and put ALL this to bed. They didn't, so somethings not right. That's got to be a fact. There's a --- storm brewing and the FIA could have stopped it completely if the Ferrari PU was Legal. They would have just said something like "After carefully inspecting the Ferrari PU, we have found that the PU is fully within the regulations, and breaches no rules"

That would also have been a correct statement if Ferrari had found a loophole, and then add a rule at a later date to the PU regulations to make sure no one can do it from 2021 onwards.

No trouble, no pain. But instead they release a crazy statement that has no answers and just makes everyone suspect the worst. There's no reason to do it unless you are trying to cover something up. And now the 7 non Ferrari powered teams are demanding answers and rightly so.

[drunkf1fan]

Nobody is stupid in this political big fight story: the other teams are trying to understand what Ferrari is doing with his PU in order to copy it. This is F1 and things have always been like this. But I am sure 100% that the FIA will not reveal Ferrari trick.

More likely hoping to have it outlawed and thus prevent a spending spree. Or even to make the FIA admit that Ferrari cheated, and thus should be thrown out of 2019's results and the lower teams get to have more prize money instead.

Lots of reasons why the other teams want to know what the agreement is and why it's all being kept hidden. The fact that it's being hidden is enough to get people interested - that's not politics, that's human nature.

First, when the FIA finds something illegal, he issues a Technical Directive to all the teams clearly stating what is illegal.
In the second hand, and according to you, the FIA is supposed to communicate to the other teams the secrets of Ferrari PU?

It is clear that the FIA press release is not well writed. But there is not only interpretations of that press release which lead to suspect that Ferrari is cheating. There are other possible interpretations which indicate that Ferrari PU is legal. And we will find out the truth (Ferrari PU maximum output) very soon

The FIA do not issue a technical directive if they find something illegal. If it's illegal by the current rules it's in the current rules thus a change via a technical directive is entirely unnecessary.

Technical directives are added when either the FIA find something illegal that isn't strictly 100% illegal in the rules and they want to make it clear or if it's something that really is legal but isn't supposed to be so they change the rules more significantly to make it illegal.

When someone is found to be breaking the fuel flow limit they don't release a technical directive telling people not to break the fuel flow, that's in the rules. The one time you don't release a technical directive is specifically when someone is flat out breaking the rules obviously in a way that is completely covered within the rules.

When someone breaks the rules in a grey area or through a loophole we either get the FIA ban it pretty much immediately with a technical directive or we get a rule change for the following year. If someone isn't breaking the rules.. that's it, no directive, no fine, no settlement, no reason to do anything. If someone isn't breaking the rules they aren't breaking the rules, everyone moves on.

Somehow Ferrari got investigated heavily then had to come to a secretive settlement.

[Chene_Mostert]

If the Ferrari was fully legal, the FIA would have said so and put ALL this to bed. They didn't, so somethings not right. That's got to be a fact. There's a --- storm brewing and the FIA could have stopped it completely if the Ferrari PU was Legal. They would have just said something like "After carefully inspecting the Ferrari PU, we have found that the PU is fully within the regulations, and breaches no rules"

That would also have been a correct statement if Ferrari had found a loophole, and then add a rule at a later date to the PU regulations to make sure no one can do it from 2021 onwards.

No trouble, no pain. But instead they release a crazy statement that has no answers and just makes everyone suspect the worst. There's no reason to do it unless you are trying to cover something up. And now the 7 non Ferrari powered teams are demanding answers and rightly so.

Can you define "fully" legal as opposed to "legal"?

[Phil]

I don't want to shout "CONSIPRACY!", but my take on the whole situation is that (and may you disagree with it);

1.)
Ferrari went overboard in an attempt to gain a performance advantage, perhaps to the degree they circumvented the sensor in a creative way.

2.)
With building pressure by teams over a potential protest, the FIA reacted in conducting a full scale investigation and found Ferrari in breach.

3.)
In light of keeping Ferrari at the table for 2021 and beyond, spare them and the sport itself from any big scandal and image damage, it was decided to keep the findings confidential and wrap it up in a neat non disclosable "settlement package". In the end, not the worst outcome, as Ferrari didn't win the championship anyway. So one could argue the "damage" was limited.

This way, F1 spares itself from any big scandal, everyone should be happy and we can all move on being assured whatever Ferrari exploited will no longer be going forward. In theory the best way forward. If this is just or fair is debatable, but I'd argue finding Ferrari in breach of whatever they were doing probably worse for everyone. You'd have to answer questions about disqualification, amending points and money pay-outs, you'd have to content with the image damage, possibly further court cases etc. You'd run the risk of perhaps losing Ferrari in F1.

I don't know, IMO the stakes are just too high and Ferrari as a contender too valuable. Perhaps this is the fallacy of F1 in general; Its players are too valuable and they have too much power in general. The sport should be attractive enough so that it's in the best interest of every contender to want to participate. Unfortunately, this is probably not the case. F1 is a business after all and a very important and lucrative one at that.

Anyway, that's just my humble take. Not based on any "facts", just my general gut feeling.