FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[kimetic]

And certainly, in case of legality, there would be no ground for settlement or community service by Ferrari. So yes, all illegality is speculative, but the credence in my view is fully towards one of at least highly disputable if not illegal practices.

Yes this is the key: there is a penalty:

"The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons as well as assist the FIA in other regulatory duties in Formula 1 and in its research activities on carbon emissions and sustainable fuels."

This is so vague yet it exists. Why do these 'commitments' exist? They are a red flag to all the other teams that (a) Ferrari were caught doing something and (b) FIA are doing something about it but the minimum.

[Unf]

One thing is obvious - when FIA and Ferrari were signing statement, they knew for 100% sure that other teams will want to know details. And cause of that - there will be absolutely nothing "bad" or "controversial" inside the document. They are not that stupid...

[Chene_Mostert]

Some rumors going around that it is not a issue with PU but with fuel.
Apparently, the fuel has non-Newtonian properties, increasing in density as it warms up closer to the PU
Possibly achieved by heat activated polymer cross linking?
This could be the reason for the introduction of a second FFM closer to the ICE?

[mvfad]

I see no reason to settlement something that complies with the rules. I see a reason for a settlement... If there was anything illegal or if there was evidence that something was illegal, but that it could not be proven now.

In addition, the agreement along the lines of what was disclosed by the FIA seems to me to be a kind of soft punishment. If Ferrari were within the rules then they would not need to accept the settlement.

Obviously we cannot say that there was cheating or not, but today, the evidence indicates this direction more strongly.

Perhaps that was the intention of the FIA ... something like "we can't say that Ferrari cheated, but we can imply that between the lines" - but that's just my conspiracy theory.

[TheFluffy]

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...

Patents are public documents with disclosure of what, how and why something does what it does. The FIA aren't protecting Ferrari's patents at all. And protecting Ferrari's patents is Ferrari's job, not the FIA's.

What the FIA is doing is trying to protect Ferrari's reputation and standing. Ferrari probably threatened to pull out, as they have so often in the past, and the FIA blinked first.

Fine, it may not be a patent that is appliable in this case becaues tbh in the racing world patents are too slow to process. But could there be an argument for trade secret which I believe there is... considering they have spent considerable effort to keep their designs secret and it would give them a 'commerical advantage' (Hence allow it to qualify as a trade secret). So I believe its a viable argument for why they are keeping everything under wraps. For example when FIA exposed Ferrari about their 'double battery concept' Ferrari were pretty furious for exposing their design.

[Mr.G]

Some rumors going around that it is not a issue with PU but with fuel.
Apparently, the fuel has non-Newtonian properties, increasing in density as it warms up closer to the PU
Possibly achieved by heat activated polymer cross linking?
This could be the reason for the introduction of a second FFM closer to the ICE?

Ketchup and starch-water mixture are non-Newtonian fluids. More force you apply to it the denser it became. Not a good property for fuel. Also they need to lay each time about the fuel amount, what is unlikely.

Here you can find an idea what can be going on - link

[kimetic]

I don't want to shout "CONSIPRACY!", but my take on the whole situation is that (and may you disagree with it);

1.)
Ferrari went overboard in an attempt to gain a performance advantage, perhaps to the degree they circumvented the sensor in a creative way.

2.)
With building pressure by teams over a potential protest, the FIA reacted in conducting a full scale investigation and found Ferrari in breach.

3.)
In light of keeping Ferrari at the table for 2021 and beyond, spare them and the sport itself from any big scandal and image damage, it was decided to keep the findings confidential and wrap it up in a neat non disclosable "settlement package". In the end, not the worst outcome, as Ferrari didn't win the championship anyway. So one could argue the "damage" was limited.

This way, F1 spares itself from any big scandal, everyone should be happy and we can all move on being assured whatever Ferrari exploited will no longer be going forward. In theory the best way forward. If this is just or fair is debatable, but I'd argue finding Ferrari in breach of whatever they were doing probably worse for everyone. You'd have to answer questions about disqualification, amending points and money pay-outs, you'd have to content with the image damage, possibly further court cases etc. You'd run the risk of perhaps losing Ferrari in F1.

I don't know, IMO the stakes are just too high and Ferrari as a contender too valuable. Perhaps this is the fallacy of F1 in general; Its players are too valuable and they have too much power in general. The sport should be attractive enough so that it's in the best interest of every contender to want to participate. Unfortunately, this is probably not the case. F1 is a business after all and a very important and lucrative one at that.

Anyway, that's just my humble take. Not based on any "facts", just my general gut feeling.

Yes this is broadly how I see it. It's not fair, but all the same it used to be worse! But now Mercedes has built a lot of power and so when it comes down to it, the old FIA/F1/Ferrari axis isn't such a clear winner as it was in the days of Bernie and Max. If Toto and Christian have teamed up that is a formidable combination. And that open letter from 7 teams is a mother of power plays.

[Chene_Mostert]

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...

Patents are public documents with disclosure of what, how and why something does what it does. The FIA aren't protecting Ferrari's patents at all. And protecting Ferrari's patents is Ferrari's job, not the FIA's.

What the FIA is doing is trying to protect Ferrari's reputation and standing. Ferrari probably threatened to pull out, as they have so often in the past, and the FIA blinked first.

Fine, it may not be a patent that is appliable in this case becaues tbh in the racing world patents are too slow to process. But could there be an argument for trade secret which I believe there is... considering they have spent considerable effort to keep their designs secret. So I believe its a viable argument for why they are keeping everything under wraps. For example when FIA exposed Ferrari about their 'double battery concept' Ferrari were pretty furious for exposing their design.

Fully agree.The ES situation went way too far, there was an open stream of info flowing to all competitors Very poorly investigated and "shared" by the FIA.
This time Ferrari called halt!

[Xwang]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14854 ... settlement

[Mattchu]

What I find especially sad about this whole affair is that it has shoved Formula 1 into the gutter, and for that I put the blame firmly at the door of the FIA.

During testing we had this wonderful innovation called DAS which got everyone talking about the sport in a very positive light, cutting edge technology, etc, etc. Whether it gets raced is another thing, if someone proves it has benefits that are against the rules then it cant be used...full stop.
Either way it brought F1 into the sports pages for the right reasons!

This ridiculous unambiguous statement written/released by the FIA at a time when it was going to arouse the most suspicion, totally the opposite to the what seemed like the "bury it at the end of testing" wish is just like putting a red rag to a bull [pun intended].
What we know is Ferrari have agreed to help the FIA with certain things, almost like a punishment...but you don`t get punished if you haven`t done anything wrong, if anyone cant see what looks a bit "dodgy" about this then the`re not really looking objectively!

The sport looks ridiculous and is now in the papers for all the wrong reasons!

p.s. Didn`t Horner say the Ferrari fuel smelt like grapefruit

[DChemTech]

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

Maybe you should reread my post. I did not say that "it's illegal because its not declared legal". What I said is that the way they chose to communicate things makes no sense to me in case it were legal, nor does the settlement. all parties would have been much better off simply stating the legality explicitly, and if necessary (although, as you say, not mandated) with some explanation at what was looked at and why technical details are not disclosed. Hence, my expectation, in light of these observations, is that of questionable legality. But I absolutely do not state that it -is- illegal or anything likewise, because again, all of that is speculative.

Never said you are saying its illegal. you just assumed that.
I posted two counter arguments to the piece I quoted from your post:

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

2. Not declaring something legal does not make it illegal. It only becomes illegal once declared illegal.

they could have declared Ferraris PU fully legal - even pointing out which regulations exactly were scrutinized

1. There was no formal complaint lodged. No charge. Therefore they can not quote any regulation. There must be a formal "breach" of regulation...
this was just an exploratory investigation based on innuendo. what one would call a "fishing expedition".

Yes, and I responded to both, even if implicitly, and I do not even disagree with your points. All I am trying to say is that the way they chose to do things they are needlessly raising suspicion, in case nothing was wrong.

There was no formal complaint, so they indeed had no need to quote formal regulation. Hell, they could have chosen not to do the fishing expedition, not to bring out any statement, not to make any settlement. Yet, they did. And with that they opened up a whole cesspool. Why do all of that? It does not make any sense.

Now, considering they did their fishing expedition, if there were no irregularities, they -could- have made that explicit. "FIA conducted a broad investigation to the legality of the Ferrari 2019 PU and found no aspects to be in conflict with the regulations.". Yet, they didn't. They -could- (not need, not must, not should) have chosen to specify specific aspects they looked at, even without a formal complaint, but based on the public concerns. They didn't. What they did is bring out a statement that they settled. And no, that doesn't make it illegal, but it raises suspicion, and we're going in circles to what I said before. All remains speculative, nothing is proven illegal, but there is an atmosphere of suspicion which was, in my view, fully avoidable without in any way disclosing technical secrets of Ferrari.

[turbof1]

The FIA aren't stupid. If they released such a statement they are probably anticipated that there were going to be clowns trying to lead a protest with the intent of revealing what the settlement was. But I do understand Merc making this move, and have everyone looking into something which happened last year rather than focusing on what is going on at the moment.

I like how everyone praises Merc for the (very very borderline) DAS system but is totally convinced that Ferrari was doing something wrong last year for a statement that reveals absolutely nothing!

It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

I am not entirely sure, but I did pick up a few years ago that patents in F1 are abolished to avoid court cases (which seems wise given teams will try to copy eachother).

[jumpingfish]

[Schumix]

Some rumors going around that it is not a issue with PU but with fuel.
Apparently, the fuel has non-Newtonian properties, increasing in density as it warms up closer to the PU
Possibly achieved by heat activated polymer cross linking?
This could be the reason for the introduction of a second FFM closer to the ICE?

In other website, thermodynamics experts are insinuating that Ferrari trick is sitting in the interface between their fuel chemistry and their cooling system. This could be the idea.
Now, in the details, how this idea works? That is where the mystery is...

[turbof1]

Let me intervene a bit in here.

Overall, discussion up to now, except one spat out, has been generally quite good. However, I do think all parties involved should take the following in account:

-Yes, the way the FIA handled is extremely suspicious and abnormal. Should Ferrari be innocent, the FIA did a lot of harm.
-Ferrari on their own are acting abnormal. They don't react at all with their reputation on the line. And they have given "reasons" several times now to describe lowered engine power and/or speed.
-That being said, Ferrari is not immediately guilty. We have not seen proof of anything, just a lot of mist.

I personally do believe if innocent, the matter should be clarified fast. This is damaging reputation of the FIA, Ferrari and F1. Clarifying does not entail releasing Ferrari legal competitive advantages, just to be clear.

In the meanwhile, I think suspicion is ok. Outright accusation understandable, but not acceptable. And from the other side people should also accept that the statements and lack of statements paints a very abnormal and highly suggestive picture. So please, I will ask everybody to handle the situation with more care.