FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Xwang]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14854 ... settlement

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

[Mattchu]

@turbof1

I think or at least hope that most of the posters on here are rational enough to realize this isn`t as straightforward as some would like you to believe.
We all love a bit of nitty gritty controversy to get our collective teeth into, many theories are being brought forward and counter arguments forthcoming, its actually quite enjoyable in a technical sense. My hope is that no-one resorts to name calling or the like and just accepts we probably will never know the full details. The other teams will come to a settlement and then F1 as a whole can move on from this...we have the first race in just over a week

[TAG]

In the meanwhile, I think suspicion is ok. Outright accusation understandable, but not acceptable. And from the other side people should also accept that the statements and lack of statements paints a very abnormal and highly suggestive picture. So please, I will ask everybody to handle the situation with more care.[/i]

You're a true peacekeeper.

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I think conclusions have already been drawn, the lack of transparency made sure of that. I hope the non Ferrari powered teams get to some resolution or closure on the issue, public or otherwise. I don't feel like I NEED to know the details, but I'm not an F1 team losing out on potential millions in payout due to the "settlement". Somebody just start the Melbourne thread so I can go loiter over there please.

[gshevlin]

Having done some more reading, I am starting to wonder if the lack of detail information in the statement from the FIA is because the workaround that Ferrari used was not simply a workaround in their powerplant, but also involved R&D from their fuel supplier, thus making it a matter of proprietary IP protection.

[bonjon1979]

Let me intervene a bit in here.

Overall, discussion up to now, except one spat out, has been generally quite good. However, I do think all parties involved should take the following in account:

-Yes, the way the FIA handled is extremely suspicious and abnormal. Should Ferrari be innocent, the FIA did a lot of harm.
-Ferrari on their own are acting abnormal. They don't react at all with their reputation on the line. And they have given "reasons" several times now to describe lowered engine power and/or speed.
-That being said, Ferrari is not immediately guilty. We have not seen proof of anything, just a lot of mist.

I personally do believe if innocent, the matter should be clarified fast. This is damaging reputation of the FIA, Ferrari and F1. Clarifying does not entail releasing Ferrari legal competitive advantages, just to be clear.

In the meanwhile, I think suspicion is ok. Outright accusation understandable, but not acceptable. And from the other side people should also accept that the statements and lack of statements paints a very abnormal and highly suggestive picture. So please, I will ask everybody to handle the situation with more care.

The FIA really haven’t help Ferrari with this one. It’s going to lead to so many questions at the start of the season. They won’t be able to weather it without coming clean. I agree, if there is any chance at all they’re innocent all parties would be trumpeting that information from the rooftop by now. If they’re not innocent, then it would certainly explain the behaviour we’re seeing and I have to say the subterfuge and mystery only serve to suggest that it must be far too serious a crime for them to come clean. That’s the only possible inference you can sensibly have from the way this matter has been dealt with.

[Tzk]

So many great (constructive) and well thought posts in here... this thread was an interesting read. Thanks everybody.

On the matter:
I still believe Ferrari didn‘t trick the sensor in a common way or stored fuel behind it as both is explicitely forbidden in the rules. It must be something more genius or else the FIA would‘ve found it way earlier.

I‘m also unsure if Ferrari actually broke a rule. Maybe it‘s a grey area and „just“ against the intentions of the rules...

[dren]

Having done some more reading, I am starting to wonder if the lack of detail information in the statement from the FIA is because the workaround that Ferrari used was not simply a workaround in their powerplant, but also involved R&D from their fuel supplier, thus making it a matter of proprietary IP protection.

The FIA doesn't have to reveal any technology regardless of legality. The teams are mad because Ferrari took 2nd place constructor payment and could have done it while racing illegal cars per the regulations.

I think those who are suggesting Ferrari pulled the tried and true "we'll leave F1" trick are on the right path.

Or, Ferrari may have approached the FIA and told them they'd disclose their 'trick', agree to stop its use, and agree to 'cooperate' with the FIA in the future if the FIA would be lenient with them. I'd say they would have done this right after the FIA decided to take one of their PUs for inspection. It's also the time the Ferrari seemed to lose its power advantage.

[dren]

I‘m also unsure if Ferrari actually broke a rule. Maybe it‘s a grey area and „just“ against the intentions of the rules...

That's where a tech directive would have come out saying such and such cannot be used. Ferrari would be considered legal for the races they used the tech, and would not be able to use it anymore.

[subcritical71]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14854 ... settlement

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

Well, the FIA are not even following their own statutes in this case;

ARTICLE 1 – The FIA
1.1 The FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE L’AUTOMOBILE (FIA), a non-profit making world organisation and an international association gathering national Automobile Clubs, Automobile Associations, Touring Clubs, and national Federations for motoring and motor sport, was founded in 1904 and enjoys consultative status with the U.N. It has its headquarters in Paris, or in such place as the General Assembly may determine.
1.2 The FIA shall refrain from manifesting discrimination on account of race, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic or social origin, language, religion, philosophical or political opinion, family situation or disability in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect.
1.3 The FIA shall respect the highest standards of governance, transparency and democracy, including anti- corruption functions and procedures.

But let's forget the lack of transparency on the part of the FIA, the governing authority for F1.

One of the arguments I see about supporting the FIA is to protect Ferrari Intellectual Property. I don't see how a statement which says there were no abnormalities discovered exposes this IP. What am I missing?

[Polite]

News from Italy,

There is a spy story going on, the Ferrari secrets have been illegally transferred to a rival team, which has never presented official protests to avoid being accused of espionage.
it seems that the pact also hides these accusations of espionage.

The ferrari engine was in the gray area, imo. A rival had the docs but could not present them directly or ran the risk of disqualification from the 2019 championship.
maybe the 2019 season should have ended with 2 or more teams disqualified..

[Xwang]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14854 ... settlement

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

Well, the FIA are not even following their own statutes in this case;

ARTICLE 1 – The FIA
1.1 The FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE L’AUTOMOBILE (FIA), a non-profit making world organisation and an international association gathering national Automobile Clubs, Automobile Associations, Touring Clubs, and national Federations for motoring and motor sport, was founded in 1904 and enjoys consultative status with the U.N. It has its headquarters in Paris, or in such place as the General Assembly may determine.
1.2 The FIA shall refrain from manifesting discrimination on account of race, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic or social origin, language, religion, philosophical or political opinion, family situation or disability in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect.
1.3 The FIA shall respect the highest standards of governance, transparency and democracy, including anti- corruption functions and procedures.

But let's forget the lack of transparency on the part of the FIA, the governing authority for F1.

One of the arguments I see about supporting the FIA is to protect Ferrari Intellectual Property. I don't see how a statement which says there were no abnormalities discovered exposes this IP. What am I missing?

Did you read Autosport article?

[subcritical71]

If I have understood correctly what Autosport says:

Code: Select all

The prosecuting body and all persons taking part in the inquiry are bound by an obligation of confidentiality vis‐à‐vis third parties not concerned with the inquiry.

it seems that the lack of information to third parties is written in FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules. Isn't it?
If so I wonder:
1) why didn't the other teams make a formal complaint and only threatened to do so?
2) why are the other teams only threatening to take legal action and are not doing it directly?
3) why did the other teams agreed FIA's Judicial and Disciplinary rules by participating to the championship, if they do not agree with them?
4) if FIA has followed its Judicial and Disciplinary rules (as it seems from the above article), what kind of legal action can the other teams do?

Well, the FIA are not even following their own statutes in this case;

ARTICLE 1 – The FIA
1.1 The FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE L’AUTOMOBILE (FIA), a non-profit making world organisation and an international association gathering national Automobile Clubs, Automobile Associations, Touring Clubs, and national Federations for motoring and motor sport, was founded in 1904 and enjoys consultative status with the U.N. It has its headquarters in Paris, or in such place as the General Assembly may determine.
1.2 The FIA shall refrain from manifesting discrimination on account of race, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic or social origin, language, religion, philosophical or political opinion, family situation or disability in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect.
1.3 The FIA shall respect the highest standards of governance, transparency and democracy, including anti- corruption functions and procedures.

But let's forget the lack of transparency on the part of the FIA, the governing authority for F1.

One of the arguments I see about supporting the FIA is to protect Ferrari Intellectual Property. I don't see how a statement which says there were no abnormalities discovered exposes this IP. What am I missing?

Did you read Autosport article?

Damn, missed the link...

[Xwang]

The same is there in case autosport is not available:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia- ... s/4716688/

[hollus]

Not that I think it is what is going on, but maybe the patent story holds more water than it might seem.
At least in my field of work, there is a period of about 12 months between the application for the patent and the actual filing of the patent. During this period, one can add data, make small corrections, etc. before committing to the final text. But also, during that period, the IP is protected, priority is established (non-exclusively) and secrecy is demanded of any third parties. The FIA might find itself bound by secrecy during those 12 months?

[Chene_Mostert]

News from Italy,

There is a spy story going on, the Ferrari secrets have been illegally transferred to a rival team, which has never presented official protests to avoid being accused of espionage.
it seems that the pact also hides these accusations of espionage.

The ferrari engine was in the gray area, imo. A rival had the docs but could not present them directly or ran the risk of disqualification from the 2019 championship.
maybe the 2019 season should have ended with 2 or more teams disqualified..

The RB "driver" Max was the first to accuse Ferrari. So this info must have been leaked to RB.
possibly why the Honda PU was also impounded, to check if it "copied" any of the Ferrari design?