FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[bluechris]

Im trying to understand everything that is discussed here and all over the internet..
To my mind FIA tried to find something in the Ferrari pu but found nothing. FIA did this after the accusations of Redbul basically. After so many months and a 2nd sensor they still didn't found it. Ferrari was dragged all this time with rumors as possible cheaters etc, even though a cheater is someone that is cought doing something illegal by the rules.
The settlement info came out and now the 2nd info from FIA basically not saying that Ferrari did something.
The other manufacturers don't know what Ferrari did or from a whistleblower know something generic but without proof. If they have proof then they fell to espionage and they cannot speak about it.

So where we are now? Again its simple, Ferrari have discovered something and they will not say it and none can force them to reveal it, even though they play the cat & the mouse game till the season starts.
Nothing will happen guys and the only thing that we will see is a Ferrari engine equal or less in power for the 1st 2-3 races and then will open up the vanes of power.

Cloud cuckoo land. Ferrari already lost their performance after the us gp. They won’t have the same performance next year. The teams know what Ferrari were up to as they were the ones that told the FIA. The truth will come out, either the FIA will be forced into saying what was suspect or the other teams, probably red bull will just come out and say it at some point.

You sure they lost it or isn't a deliberate action to cloud the waters and they still continue so? they knew last year the FIA will not find their innovation for certain? They didn't and the clicked the engine down. In the life of me i don't believe a word from Binoto for anything that he said the past weeks about their power unit. You saw sad faces our anything at Ferrari? I didn't, i saw only people a bit anxious about car setup because they tried many things trying to understand the new car behavior.

I bet that the engine power is there waiting to unfold but if not, the whole technical team must find another job.

[Ringleheim]

I think most people would have been much more accepting if they came with this the first time. However, there are few things now to consider:
-The FIA wasn't sure how to get down to evidence.
-There is a settlement in place now

I am not saying immediately that Ferrari did effectively broke the regulations, I think that really has to be proven frankly, but reaching a settlement could very well imply there is a guilt confession from Ferrari in exchange for exconerating Ferrari of any legal action, plus Ferrari has to help with preventing this in the future. Building on that, the FIA does look to be resource/technical unable to unravel power unit complexities despite this being the 7th season with these drive trains, so it makes a deal with Ferrari to avoid this situation in the future.

If this is the correct reflection of what has transpired, then there are problems:
-Such a deal is preferable if only 2 parties involved, but with so many stakeholders it really is not.
-It involves literally dozens of millions of price money.
-Furthermore, should aid from Ferrari entail them having access to power units of the competition when the FIA calls for help, then they are looking at intellectual property from others and potentially can integrate that into their own power unit.

Whatever the case is, the FIA did not just made a deal with Ferrari, but also enforced that deal on others.

Anything beyond that point is mare speculation/supposition and wishful thinking.

I would disagree in part here. There's a feeding base for the suspicion now. Juricidally Ferrari is for now still innocent, but there is now a stain, be it correct or incorrect, on their brand.

Come on man, save the melodrama! There is no stain on their brand other than in the minds of those who hate Ferrari and wish that to be the case.

Let's all take a step back and remember that every single one of the teams in F1 is actively looking to "cheat" (to use the word loosely) all day every day, and we have no idea who is doing what, or how successfully. That's the starting point of the conversation.

The entire art of being a good F1 designer is being able to interpret the rulebook cleverly so as to gain an advantage in a sport where hundredths of a second can make a difference.

I am a Ferrari fan. It sounds to me like they totally found some "rule bending" tricks to get more power out of the engine. The FIA had trouble proving if it was legal or illegal. Maybe they botched something up on their own end that they don't want to talk about too. I think they reached an agreement so that Ferrari stops doing X (now that the FIA knows what it was and knows how to look for it) and in exchange, Ferrari has greatly upgraded the FIA's intelligence on these sorts of power-enhancement tricks. I'm sure Ferrari showed them some things they never even thought of. So now the FIA can better police the entire field.

It all works out to a net "zero" of liability in the eyes of the FIA and they are going to leave things as they are, with the caveat that Ferrari can't continue doing what they were doing, and the FIA is better suited to police the other teams who might try to go down the same road.

If you don't like how this has gone down, donate ten or 20 million dollars to the FIA so they can hire technical minds on the same level as the top teams. Without that, the FIA will always be playing catch up and these types of incidents are always going to occur, now and again.

Such is life in F1.

[Schumix]

Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).

I think most people would have been much more accepting if they came with this the first time. However, there are few things now to consider:
-The FIA wasn't sure how to get down to evidence.
-There is a settlement in place now

I am not saying immediately that Ferrari did effectively broke the regulations, I think that really has to be proven frankly, but reaching a settlement could very well imply there is a guilt confession from Ferrari in exchange for exconerating Ferrari of any legal action, plus Ferrari has to help with preventing this in the future. Building on that, the FIA does look to be resource/technical unable to unravel power unit complexities despite this being the 7th season with these drive trains, so it makes a deal with Ferrari to avoid this situation in the future.

If this is the correct reflection of what has transpired, then there are problems:
-Such a deal is preferable if only 2 parties involved, but with so many stakeholders it really is not.
-It involves literally dozens of millions of price money.
-Furthermore, should aid from Ferrari entail them having access to power units of the competition when the FIA calls for help, then they are looking at intellectual property from others and potentially can integrate that into their own power unit.

Whatever the case is, the FIA did not just made a deal with Ferrari, but also enforced that deal on others.

Yes agree that it really has yet to be proven that FERRARI did effectively broke the rules/regulations. So until than that’s where the situation stands at. Anything beyond that point is mare speculation/supposition and wishful thinking.

Fully agreed with you: our starting point is now that Ferrari 2019 and 2020 PU are legal.
From there, we will see in the firts 3 races where Ferrari stand in terms of Max PU output in qualification and race. We just have to be patient...

[bluechris]

I think anybody, no matter on which side of the fence you are, would agree neither option is a positive outcome. The situation as it is now is completely undesirable. Therefore, the situation has to be cleared out, be it to prove Ferrari's innocence or guilt.

Why Ferrari has to prove anything to anyone? I mean they had their engine for scrutiny. No one else need to learn anything about their engine even if they die to learn, its not how the game is played. Did RB explained to anyone what they did to their wings? Or Ferrari knows how the other engines work? No. If there will be a full disclosure between all the manufacturers how their engines operate then Ferrari can say also but its unlogical to be Mercedes and you must learn how Ferrari engine works. Maybe they have hidden minions that run inside the wheels, who knows but no one deserves to know from the others.

[hurril]

I think anybody, no matter on which side of the fence you are, would agree neither option is a positive outcome. The situation as it is now is completely undesirable. Therefore, the situation has to be cleared out, be it to prove Ferrari's innocence or guilt.

Why Ferrari has to prove anything to anyone? I mean they had their engine for scrutiny. No one else need to learn anything about their engine even if they die to learn, its not how the game is played. Did RB explained to anyone what they did to their wings? Or Ferrari knows how the other engines work? No. If there will be a full disclosure between all the manufacturers how their engines operate then Ferrari can say also but its unlogical to be Mercedes and you must learn how Ferrari engine works. Maybe they have hidden minions that run inside the wheels, who knows but no one deserves to know from the others.

Because there are rules that apply to everyone. That's why.

[dren]

I am not saying immediately that Ferrari did effectively broke the regulations, I think that really has to be proven frankly, but reaching a settlement could very well imply there is a guilt confession from Ferrari in exchange for exconerating Ferrari of any legal action, plus Ferrari has to help with preventing this in the future. Building on that, the FIA does look to be resource/technical unable to unravel power unit complexities despite this being the 7th season with these drive trains, so it makes a deal with Ferrari to avoid this situation in the future.

Wasn't there a fuel weight discrepancy in the tank after a race? The FIA may not be able to show evidence that Ferrari cheated over the previous races, but they have one race they could DSQ them, right? And then a possible penalty for further races. I remember BAR got a couple race ban for holding extra fuel in the tank. And for those who think this is a Merc vs Ferrari fanboi thing, BAR is now...Mercedes.

[turbof1]

Come on man, save the melodrama! There is no stain on their brand other than in the minds of those who hate Ferrari and wish that to be the case.

Isn't categorizing everybody who thinks Ferrari's reputation is tarnished as a Ferrari hater ironically melodrama?

Without holding weight on it as a pointer towards guilt or innocence, this conversation is not just here, but everywhere. Ferrari's honesty is being questioned, that is the truth. The matter should be cleared out. Note how I'm not assuming directly a breach of rules here. I am only pointing now at the controversy. That represents neither love or hate for Ferrari. That only represents a desire for clarity in the matter.

[turbof1]

Wasn't there a fuel weight discrepancy in the tank after a race? The FIA may not be able to show evidence that Ferrari cheated over the previous races, but they have one race they could DSQ them, right? And then a possible penalty for further races. I remember BAR got a couple race ban for holding extra fuel in the tank. And for those who think this is a Merc vs Ferrari fanboi thing, BAR is now...Mercedes.

Ferrari passed the wrong fuel amount to the FIA, which was neither a sporting or technical regulation breach, but a sporting code breach. One of the options the FIA had, was to dsq them, but they could also pass other, milder punishments for the matter, which the FIA did (it was a fine I believe?).

I think BAR was a technical regulation breach. A breach of that is an immediate DSQ.

[dans79]

No news yet from the "The Magnificent Seven" ?

That's a nice name

it's a better movie, and i mean the original, not the horrendous remake.

[subcritical71]

The FIA need to think hard if they are not able to police certain rules.... if that is truly the case those rules which cannot be policed should be thrown out.

[Just_a_fan]

Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).

Which also means it can't prove it didn't breach the rules. And, crucially, Ferrari wasn't able to prove it hadn't broken the rules.

That last bit is the bit that most people, including all Ferrari fans, are ignoring.

If Ferrari could prove they were legal, there wouldn't be an issue would there? They would demonstrate it and the FIA would say ""they're legal". That they can't do so doesn't mean they're legal, it means they're probably illegal but the prosecutor (the FIA) couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were cheating.

The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.

[saviour stivala]

The FIA need to think hard if they are not able to police certain rules.... if that is truly the case those rules which cannot be policed should be thrown out.

But the question is. Who says that the FIA are not able to police rules?.

[marmer]

Could liberty stron arm the FIA on this to get it sorted out it's rather embarrassing for the sport.

If the FIA can't be forced to sort it could teams perhaps try and block Ferrari in q1 from setting decent laps. Just tell Williams and Toro roso to be out out laps Infront of Ferrari and hot laps l at the same time

[turbof1]

Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).

Which also means it can't prove it didn't breach the rules. And, crucially, Ferrari wasn't able to prove it hadn't broken the rules.

That last bit is the bit that most people, including all Ferrari fans, are ignoring.

If Ferrari could prove they were legal, there wouldn't be an issue would there? They would demonstrate it and the FIA would say ""they're legal". That they can't do so doesn't mean they're legal, it means they're probably illegal but the prosecutor (the FIA) couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were cheating.

The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.

To be fair, the saying does go "innocent until proven otherwise". Not saying this to close our eyes or be naïve, but I think this "they have not proven guilt" or "they have not proven their innocence" is a never ending circle. It's therefore better to stay away from too black and white assumptions on either side, for now.

[dans79]

The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.

I firmly believe that unless the FIA provides clarity, the other teams are going to make Ferrai's season very unpleasant. Nothing is stopping them from protesting ever single derivation of what they think Ferrari might have done. This season could easily become a long chain of protests that ends up in a court battle.