FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[turbof1]

But but but who will decide in the end that the engine is legal? Endless discussions here with 1 fundamental problem, only FIA can declare that and they cannot so?
RB cannot say nothing or anyone because if it shows facts they will have problem from corporate espionage.

Do you always skip to the end of a good series ? We'll see where it goes. I'm always open for cliffhangers, plot twists and a good round of surprise backstabbing.

[turbof1]

Taken from 2020 FIA International Sporting Code

ARTICLE 12.1 BREACH OF RULES
12.1.1 Any of the following offences, in addition to any
offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed
to be a breach of these rules:

....

12.1.1.f Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral
injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its
executive officers.

....

According to you, can the seven teams document fall under 12.1.1.f ?

That is possible, although do note we have concorde agreement negotiations running. Ultimately the FIA can end up doing much more harm than good with applying that rule.

[Mr.G]

I don't get it guys, maybe i need to read the rules but if the governing body which is FIA in our case, cannot declare something legal or illegal then what's the point if RB or anyone file a request? Ferrari is obligated to show to them their engine? Or the court can do the work that FIA was unable to do without revealing how Ferrari engine works? Because in the end it's Ferrari secrets and property in engine design and they will never reveal anything.
To me its a case like the egg did the chicken or the chicken did the egg. Nothing will be revealed and nothing ever in past was revealed. Just we will have the moaning from the other manufacturers but eventually they will go on.

Whoah! Nobody is saying Ferrari needs to show their PU to the competition, or to reveal any specifics of their PU to said competition! I think what is desired, is enough expertise at the FIA to clearly determine if something is within rules or a breach of rules.

And you might be right, the "magnificent seven" (which I still find quite fittingly called ) might drop this. They might also not. We'll see.

I think the does have enough expertise, it just like with flexing wings before - they know from videos that they bend too much but the rules only required static test... Same issue here, they now what they're doing but there is no rule against...

[kimetic]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

[Mr.G]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)

[TAG]

The flexi wings stopped flexing, and Ferrari's additional 30 hp down the straights is gone. No one cheated though. F1's version of Three Card Monte.

[kimetic]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)

IF it was legal then of course they'd all do it. I thought it was pretty obvious that Ferrari stopped doing it though, last year, because FIA started looking into it and issuing TD's.

[Laserguru]

Two things got me thinking. The 3rd party involved and gentlemen’s agreements.

Remember last year when there was discussion amongst drivers about a gentlemen’s agreement not to overtake when in position for a fast qualifying lap? Well, this agreement was said to not be a rule and no longer obeyed and of course the drivers were right: it never was a rule. As long as everyone obeys there is a status quo and everybody gains equally.

Filing an official complaint is the gentlemen’s rule amongst teams. They all cheat and, as long as it is proportional, nobody gets hurt and we all live happily ever after.

However, RBR announced that if Ferrari would continue with their assumed illegal power unit they would file an official complaint this year. My guess is that Ferrari found out during winter testing that this is not a loose threat.

Now, what happens if RBR file an official complaint? They become the 3rd party. That is not in the interest of Ferrari.

As the Fia were already investigating their power unit, Ferrari proposed to settle and change their power unit. They will simply not use their trickery, and have same power as their customer teams for the coming month. Hell, they even got a great deal out of it! Their customer teams were not able to exploit the trickery in the first place.

So, as announced by Ferrari, they will have a new power unit due Barcelona timeframe to recover lost grounds.

Pure speculation of course.

If it happens, that will be great. RB will then have to provide the proofs of their complaint.
That is really interesting since we will discuss based on facts. And now the fact now is that, according to the FIA, Ferrari 2020 PU is legal.

RBR as per, if I remember right, Helmut Marko, so who knows.
Besides, it will never happen anymore since there now is a settlement: Ferrari will probably no longer use their trickery on their current power unit and their new power unit due Barcelona will most likely no longer need or exploit this trickery.

Not saying trickery would be discovered or proven, but since RBR then becomes a 3rd party they are very likely to get access to a lot of technical know how that Ferrari and Shell prefer to keep to themselves?

Issuing the first hurried statement would keep RBR from filing an official complaint in Australia.

Not sure if I agree that FIA declared the power unit legal. They only said they stopped investigation, as part of the deal with Ferrari. No legal or illegal declaration, just burry the topic.

[marmer]

Seven teams write to FIA over Ferrari engine controversy - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

Teams written to FIA demanding answers to several questions and set a date for the answer although no exact information one what or when

[Mr.G]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)

IF it was legal then of course they'd all do it. I thought it was pretty obvious that Ferrari stopped doing it though, last year, because FIA started looking into it and issuing TD's.

I don't know, I still read here that it wasn't the case from the data. Ferrari may only tuned it down. We need to wait for the first few races.

From all the fuss what Mercedes is doing about it I have a feeling that they can see from the testing that Ferrari doesn't lost it's advantage.

[dans79]

Taken from 2020 FIA International Sporting Code

ARTICLE 12.1 BREACH OF RULES
12.1.1 Any of the following offences, in addition to any
offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed
to be a breach of these rules:

....

12.1.1.f Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral
injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its
executive officers.

....

According to you, can the seven teams document fall under 12.1.1.f ?

The FIA violated their own rules with there press releases, so should they penalize themselves?

Those rules also don't apply to Liberty, who i'm willing to bet aren't overly enthusiastic about what' transpired over the last few days.

[Just_a_fan]

Seven teams write to FIA over Ferrari engine controversy - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

Teams written to FIA demanding answers to several questions and set a date for the answer although no exact information one what or when

I think this is a key issue. Perhaps the key issue:

The issue has arisen at a sensitive time for the FIA and F1 as they are attempting to conclude negotiations over the terms by which the teams will sign up to take part in F1 for the five-year period starting in 2021.

No team is committed to F1 beyond the end of this season and the seven are understood to be concerned about the lack of transparency displayed by the FIA and feel it raises questions about how the sport is governed in the modern age.

Ferrari might have used it's historically well known "we'll leave if you make us unhappy" line that dear old Enzo used way back in the day to great effect. And maybe the FIA were scared by that. But what will Liberty think if 7 teams say "meh, maybe we won't sign up next year unless..."?

The teams are generally not happy that Ferrari gets special treatment these days. This is just another part of that complaint.

[etusch]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)

You are trying too hard to defend Ferrari. If Ferrari were legal with what they did they can show what they did generaously to Fia. Then fia were going to declare that ferrari found something clever and completely legal and they were certainly not breaching fuel flow limits. Then everyone were going to accept that and start working to find what it is... This is how things must be going.

[kimetic]

I don't know, I still read here that it wasn't the case from the data. Ferrari may only tuned it down. We need to wait for the first few races.

From all the fuss what Mercedes is doing about it I have a feeling that they can see from the testing that Ferrari doesn't lost it's advantage.

If Ferrari turned the engine down then why would they leave the marginal tricks in place and turn it down somewhere else?

This year the second fuel sensor is there so that closes that off in any case. I don't feel The Seven are concerned about Ferrari's 2020 performance, I think it's about the governance of F1. It's been biased since anyone can remember, and now finally there's enough power among the oem's to challenge that. Especially since, as has been mentioned, it's contract time.

I think the 7 reckon FIA could have gone after Ferrari, if they'd wanted. And FIA did, a bit. But only a bit. More than they would have in the past, perhaps, so they might be surprised it wasn't enough.

[Mr.G]

The big issue, surely, is that 70% of the teams doubt the integrity of the governing body, and have come out and said so. FIA say they can't tell, and most teams simply don't believe them. Where does it go from here?

More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)

You are trying too hard to defend Ferrari. If Ferrari were legal with what they did they can show what they do generaously to Fia. Then fia were going to declare that ferrari found something clever and completely legal and they were certainly not breaching fuel flow limits. Then everyone were going to accept that and start working to find what it is...

They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal. In other words - they have found a way how to store fuel after the fuel flow sensor measuremens.
Actually it was Mercedes who came with the idea to store fuel after measurements, but then the rules was changed and everyone ware thinking that this path/loophole was closed. But apparently Ferrari found a crack in it and exploited it...

And no it's not about Ferrari, it's classic F1...