FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
bluechris
9
Joined: 26 Jun 2019, 20:28
Location: Athens

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

dans79 wrote:
Xwang wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 22:27
Taken from 2020 FIA International Sporting Code
ARTICLE 12.1 BREACH OF RULES
12.1.1 Any of the following offences, in addition to any
offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed
to be a breach of these rules:

....

12.1.1.f Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral
injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its
executive officers.


....
According to you, can the seven teams document fall under 12.1.1.f ?
The FIA violated their own rules with there press releases, so should they penalize themselves?

Those rules also don't apply to Liberty, who i'm willing to bet aren't overly enthusiastic about what' transpired over the last few days.
Oh no, the opposite. Liberty came in the F1 game for 1 and only reason, to get big money for they shareholders and believe me what is happening now, that influence the whole Motorsport world and not only that but the fans also, its the biggest advertisement for their product. I imagine as we are here and debate this and that, they are sitting in their big fat chairs drinking something and a chat between fia, liberty and anyone other big gun speaking with BERNIE "boss what we do now that we have everyone on their toes" and BERNIE reply calmly "throw them a cheese about the Pink Mercedes to change the field".
Its politics guys and we are the sheep's that love F1 and they joke in our backs.

P.S. bring back the grid girls dear liberty please.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

201 105 104 9 9 7

User avatar
Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

bluechris wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:23
dans79 wrote:
Xwang wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 22:27
Taken from 2020 FIA International Sporting Code



According to you, can the seven teams document fall under 12.1.1.f ?
The FIA violated their own rules with there press releases, so should they penalize themselves?

Those rules also don't apply to Liberty, who i'm willing to bet aren't overly enthusiastic about what' transpired over the last few days.
Oh no, the opposite. Liberty came in the F1 game for 1 and only reason, to get big money for they shareholders and believe me what is happening now, that influence the whole Motorsport world and not only that but the fans also, its the biggest advertisement for their product. I imagine as we are here and debate this and that, they are sitting in their big fat chairs drinking something and a chat between fia, liberty and anyone other big gun speaking with BERNIE "boss what we do now that we have everyone on their toes" and BERNIE reply calmly "throw them a cheese about the Pink Mercedes to change the field".
Its politics guys and we are the sheep's that love F1 and they joke in our backs.

P.S. bring back the grid girls dear liberty please.
I would give you an up vote if I can :D
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

User avatar
etusch
131
Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Mr.G wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:20
etusch wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:11
Mr.G wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 22:44


More like 70% of the teams playing a theatre... I want to see their so called "integrity" once they found what's Ferrari doing... If Ferrari would say OK here is the thing we are doing that and that and is legal within the rules (not in the spirit but legal) they would just copy it ASAP... (double diffuser, blown diffuser, cold blowing, flexible wings, f-duct, oil burning, ...)
You are trying too hard to defend Ferrari. If Ferrari were legal with what they did they can show what they do generaously to Fia. Then fia were going to declare that ferrari found something clever and completely legal and they were certainly not breaching fuel flow limits. Then everyone were going to accept that and start working to find what it is...
They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal. In other words - they have found a way how to store fuel after the fuel flow sensor measuremens.
Actually it was Mercedes who came with the idea to store fuel after measurements, but then the rules was changed and everyone ware thinking that this path/loophole was closed. But apparently Ferrari found a crack in it and exploited it...

And no it's not about Ferrari, it's classic F1...
If so why fia lying about investigation? If it is found why they are saying found nothing, if this kind of something legal why they don't declare it.
In the other hand it is very simple not clever. How much fuel you can store? Can you store in a normal pipe as much as enough to keep ham at back for whole monza straights?

izzy
izzy
41
Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

PlanetF1 is reporting Italian media calling it WAR!
https://www.planetf1.com/features/itali ... is-is-war/

so yes Liberty will be loving it. i bet they're involved behind the scenes tho. But grid girls, that is so yesterday, boy power :roll: one of the things they've got right

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

izzy wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:44
PlanetF1 is reporting Italian media calling it WAR!
https://www.planetf1.com/features/itali ... is-is-war/

so yes Liberty will be loving it. i bet they're involved behind the scenes tho. But grid girls, that is so yesterday, boy power :roll: one of the things they've got right
So many historical based comments could be made about this, but im sure the moderators would punish me! :lol:
201 105 104 9 9 7

izzy
izzy
41
Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

dans79 wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:47
izzy wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:44
PlanetF1 is reporting Italian media calling it WAR!
https://www.planetf1.com/features/itali ... is-is-war/

so yes Liberty will be loving it. i bet they're involved behind the scenes tho. But grid girls, that is so yesterday, boy power :roll: one of the things they've got right
So many historical based comments could be made about this, but im sure the moderators would punish me! :lol:
oh go on :o :D

cooken
cooken
11
Joined: 02 Apr 2013, 01:57

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Interesting indeed, seems we have the most hotly anticipated season debut since Brawn?


saviour stivala wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 21:15
Anything beyond that point is mare speculation/supposition and wishful thinking.
Can't tell if this is a mistake or an exceedingly clever horsepower pun.

User avatar
Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

etusch wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:36
Mr.G wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:20
etusch wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:11

You are trying too hard to defend Ferrari. If Ferrari were legal with what they did they can show what they do generaously to Fia. Then fia were going to declare that ferrari found something clever and completely legal and they were certainly not breaching fuel flow limits. Then everyone were going to accept that and start working to find what it is...
They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal. In other words - they have found a way how to store fuel after the fuel flow sensor measuremens.
Actually it was Mercedes who came with the idea to store fuel after measurements, but then the rules was changed and everyone ware thinking that this path/loophole was closed. But apparently Ferrari found a crack in it and exploited it...

And no it's not about Ferrari, it's classic F1...
If so why fia lying about investigation? If it is found why they are saying found nothing, if this kind of something legal why they don't declare it.
In the other hand it is very simple not clever. How much fuel you can store? Can you store in a normal pipe as much as enough to keep ham at back for whole monza straights?
IIRC - Last year Mercedes was saying this - "We (both Ferrari and Mercedes) are accelerating in the same way but then we go flat (top speed) and them (Ferrari) keeps accelerating longer"

This is in sync with the idea - I assume their fuel line is expandable (in diameter) so during the lap, when there's lower demand for fuel they keep pumping more fuel through the fuel flow sensor than actually needed and keep expanding the fuel line. Once they reach straight they go to the max with the flow limit so the acceleration is the same, but then they use up the saved fuel and continue in acceleration a bit longer...

How much? I don't know how the usual fuel line looks like, but the rumour is that the new rules will limit it to 2dl. So I assume this is the volume of typical fuel line. Regarding the expansion - I would say it's between 0.5 - 2 times of the diameter (I think this is possible with current materials)...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

User avatar
etusch
131
Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Ferrari have been in Formula One longer than any other team. When someone mentions F1 today, one of the first things people think of is Ferrari. As a result, the Italian Stallion has enjoyed a particular relationship with the sports administrators – both in the past and in the present. Now, with the recent “settlement” that has been reached between Ferrari and the F.I.A. regarding the technical investigation into Ferrari’s 2019 power unit, it has left fans wondering if Ferrari are really accountable to the rules of the sport.

On the 4th March 2020, seven of Ferrari’s rivals, spearheaded by Mercedes and basically all the teams that aren’t Ferrari customers, issued a joint statement expressing their “surprise” and “shock” at the decision by the F.I.A. and asked for a full disclosure
IN RESPONSE TO THE SEVEN TEAMS, THE F.I.A. RELEASED A STATEMENT SAYING,
“The FIA has conducted detailed technical analysis on the Scuderia Ferrari Power Unit as it is entitled to do for any competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship.

“The extensive and thorough investigations undertaken during the 2019 season raised suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times.

“The Scuderia Ferrari firmly opposed the suspicions and reiterated that its PU always operated in compliance with the regulations. The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.

“To avoid the negative consequences that a long litigation would entail especially in light of the uncertainty of the outcome of such litigations and in the best interest of the Championship and of its stakeholders, the FIA, in compliance with Article 4 (ii) of its Judicial and Disciplinary Rules (JDR), decided to enter into an effective and dissuasive settlement agreement with Ferrari to terminate the proceedings.”

“This type of agreement is a legal tool recognised as an essential component of any disciplinary system and is used by many public authorities and other sport federations in the handling of disputes.

“The confidentiality of the terms of the settlement agreement is provided for by Article 4 (vi) of the JDR.”


Basically, they couldn’t be bothered to investigate any further because of the amount of time, energy and paperwork it will take. (Feel free to jump into the comments with your thoughts on the statement).

So, the seven teams won’t get any more information about it and, historically speaking, no-one in the F1 community will be surprised and things will just move on – but should they? With the F.I.A. admitting they weren’t able to prove if Ferrari’s engine was legal or not and were unable to reach a conclusion, then shouldn’t more be made of this? If this isn’t looked into further, what’s to stop other teams in the future attempting similar things and how will they be policed?

Ferrari get a larger proportion of the annual revenue, enhanced by a historical bonus, which is said to be worth up to $100 million – an amount similar to the entire season budget for one of the smaller teams in the paddock. What’s more is that this money is paid up front before the racing even starts.

Additionally, whilst tobacco brandings were effectively outlawed during the early 2000’s, (though thanks to lobbying and use of legal loopholes it was the end of 2006) Ferrari are still allowed to get away with their on-going relationship with Philip Morris, which has been running since 1984. They even share board members between the two companies - Ferrari’s Chief Executive Officer, Louis Camilleri is also non-executive Chairman of Philip Morris International (PMI), even former team boss Maurizio Arrivabene came from PMI, the team are even officially entered in F1 as Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow.

In the interests of fairness, it should be noted that McLaren also have a sponsorship arrangement with British American Tobacco and their “Better Tomorrow” and “Vype” branding – part of BAT’s “potentially reduced-risk products.”


Both using the trusty old friend – the legal loophole which, it seems, the sport’s regulators seem more than willing to turn a blind eye to.

But what if, one day, Chase Carey, Jean Todt (ex-Ferrari) and the rest of them suddenly decided that enough was enough?

Ferrari famously do not advertise their products yet are probably one of the best known brands in the world – they would possibly take a (small) initial financial hit from not being in Formula One, but a couple of limited number special editions would probably soon balance that back out.

A bigger question or just a more difficult one to answer is: What would Formula One look like without Ferrari on the grid – even if we worked on the assumption that Haas and Sauber/Alfa Romeo would continue in some form?

Ferrari have ‘threatened’ to walk away before and an accommodation to keep them in the sport has always been made but the sport is, or at least should be, bigger than any single team.

The proposed budget cap would be more easily introduced (Ferrari are one of, if not, the biggest spenders) and the remaining teams revenue share would increase – the availability of a fair slice of the pie might even entice other manufacturers into the sport and kick the tyres - so to speak - back into F1 as outside manufactures see the sport as a more level playing field.

I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams.

Basically, they couldn’t be bothered to investigate any further because of the amount of time, energy and paperwork it will take. (Feel free to jump into the comments with your thoughts on the statement).

So, the seven teams won’t get any more information about it and, historically speaking, no-one in the F1 community will be surprised and things will just move on – but should they? With the F.I.A. admitting they weren’t able to prove if Ferrari’s engine was legal or not and were unable to reach a conclusion, then shouldn’t more be made of this? If this isn’t looked into further, what’s to stop other teams in the future attempting similar things and how will they be policed?

Ferrari get a larger proportion of the annual revenue, enhanced by a historical bonus, which is said to be worth up to $100 million – an amount similar to the entire season budget for one of the smaller teams in the paddock. What’s more is that this money is paid up front before the racing even starts.

Additionally, whilst tobacco brandings were effectively outlawed during the early 2000’s, (though thanks to lobbying and use of legal loopholes it was the end of 2006) Ferrari are still allowed to get away with their on-going relationship with Philip Morris, which has been running since 1984. They even share board members between the two companies - Ferrari’s Chief Executive Officer, Louis Camilleri is also non-executive Chairman of Philip Morris International (PMI), even former team boss Maurizio Arrivabene came from PMI, the team are even officially entered in F1 as Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow.

In the interests of fairness, it should be noted that McLaren also have a sponsorship arrangement with British American Tobacco and their “Better Tomorrow” and “Vype” branding – part of BAT’s “potentially reduced-risk products.”


Both using the trusty old friend – the legal loophole which, it seems, the sport’s regulators seem more than willing to turn a blind eye to.

But what if, one day, Chase Carey, Jean Todt (ex-Ferrari) and the rest of them suddenly decided that enough was enough?

Ferrari famously do not advertise their products yet are probably one of the best known brands in the world – they would possibly take a (small) initial financial hit from not being in Formula One, but a couple of limited number special editions would probably soon balance that back out.

A bigger question or just a more difficult one to answer is: What would Formula One look like without Ferrari on the grid – even if we worked on the assumption that Haas and Sauber/Alfa Romeo would continue in some form?


Ferrari have ‘threatened’ to walk away before and an accommodation to keep them in the sport has always been made but the sport is, or at least should be, bigger than any single team.

The proposed budget cap would be more easily introduced (Ferrari are one of, if not, the biggest spenders) and the remaining teams revenue share would increase – the availability of a fair slice of the pie might even entice other manufacturers into the sport and kick the tyres - so to speak - back into F1 as outside manufactures see the sport as a more level playing field.

I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams.

Both using the trusty old friend – the legal loophole which, it seems, the sport’s regulators seem more than willing to turn a blind eye to.

But what if, one day, Chase Carey, Jean Todt (ex-Ferrari) and the rest of them suddenly decided that enough was enough?

Ferrari famously do not advertise their products yet are probably one of the best known brands in the world – they would possibly take a (small) initial financial hit from not being in Formula One, but a couple of limited number special editions would probably soon balance that back out.

A bigger question or just a more difficult one to answer is: What would Formula One look like without Ferrari on the grid – even if we worked on the assumption that Haas and Sauber/Alfa Romeo would continue in some form?

Ferrari have ‘threatened’ to walk away before and an accommodation to keep them in the sport has always been made but the sport is, or at least should be, bigger than any single team.

The proposed budget cap would be more easily introduced (Ferrari are one of, if not, the biggest spenders) and the remaining teams revenue share would increase – the availability of a fair slice of the pie might even entice other manufacturers into the sport and kick the tyres - so to speak - back into F1 as outside manufactures see the sport as a more level playing field.

I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams


https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1

kimetic
kimetic
2
Joined: 14 Feb 2020, 00:36

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

etusch wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 00:03
Ferrari have been in Formula One longer than any other team. When someone mentions F1 today, one of the first things people think of is Ferrari.
I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams
https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1
The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Mr.G wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:20


They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal. In other words - they have found a way how to store fuel after the fuel flow sensor measuremens.
Storing fuel after the sensor is straight up illegal. The rules specifically exclude it so they can't have found a legal way of doing that.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
37
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 08:57

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

Mr.G wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 23:20
They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal.
Any increase of fuel flow beyond regulated limits is a breach of the technical regulations. No matter where in the fuel system they do it or what they do to achieve that. No ifs, no buts.

If they did do that, however, it was certainly a clever method that is hard to prove adequately. That is obvious as they haven't been disqualified yet. It probably wasn't a simple expandable pipe, that would likely be one of the first things checked.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

3jawchuck wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 00:43
It probably wasn't a simple expandable pipe, that would likely be one of the first things checked.
Yea, it would have to be something a lot more hidden like functionality that is temperature, pressure, or frequency dependent. Then the concept of plausible deniability becomes relevant.
201 105 104 9 9 7

User avatar
Racer X
8
Joined: 21 Apr 2013, 19:04

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

Post

kimetic wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 00:29
etusch wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 00:03
Ferrari have been in Formula One longer than any other team. When someone mentions F1 today, one of the first things people think of is Ferrari.
I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams
https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1
The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

They should host talks of leaving to force equal treatment. I dont think F1 needs to really do very much to change. All they have to learn to do is to treat Ferrari the same way they would treat Williams or Renault. Like when they banned Renault for cheating in the Late 2000's. Or when they have stopped/banned a lot of the development and advanced engineering by Williams in the 90's. Or how every time a team like for example Sauber in 2011 comes out with a component that did not meet technical specification. They were immediately excluded from race results like in the Australian GP of that year. Or last years Renault disqualification at the Japanese GP.

Its just amazing how they have time to enforce rules and regulations on some teams but not all...
All they have to do is learn to be fair. Mercedes is smart they know the FIA wont let them slip so they consult them during development to avoid problems but the thing I dont get is when the FIA untimely decides to not allow a system like DAS. For the following year well why not exclude it for this year... They are basically giving them a one time pass to cheat this year but also banning it so Mercedes uses this system that's technically legal but also not worth researching for the other teams. I think DAS should be banned now before Australia if it wont be allowed next season it just seems more fair but then again I'm just a fan and maybe F1 has always been about who cheats best.
RedBull Racing Checo//PEREZ