Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Bandit1216]

What do you guys think about my freewheel bearing theory? The inner race connected to the inner shaft for the turbo and the outer race connected the rotor of the Mgu-h is. This would allow the inner and thus turbo to spin faster then the Mgu-h but not vice versa. This would however mean the mhu-h is not able to power the the turbo when the inner speed is higher, but that's the one situation it doesn't need to. This would be an very simple and light "clutch".

It would be possible to mgu-h - power the turbo until 125 krpm but beyond that, only by exhaust energy.

[PlatinumZealot]

“This is the early prototype” certainly nothing to do with what is used in formula one.

I am pretty sure Garrett said so themselves. Similar tech is used. Why not?

[Tommy Cookers]

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

PM rotor
the 125000 rpm is the practical limit of transistor's current switching speed at these power (current) levels
not in the H but in the 'controller' that makes the H work

[PlatinumZealot]

How much kW was the MGUH estimated at again?

[etusch]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spin

[Bandit1216]

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spin

Do you mean isolate the magnettic field?

[Sasha]

Duplicate

[Sasha]

Twin spool design legal???
Compressor and turbine turning different speed than MGU-H and C/turbine wouldn't be limited to 125,000?

What we are doing on our research project using Honda's F1 Split Turbo design as base/starting point for our turbo charger.

[MtthsMlw]

How much kW was the MGUH estimated at again?

~80kW has been a common estimate.

[etusch]

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spin

Do you mean isolate the magnettic field?

Yes

[GhostF1]

@Ghost and @Stivala

Too long to respond in detail.
I am gonna leave this here courtesy of Garrett :

Notice there are no clutch mechanisms.

https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric- ... t-e-turbo/

https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-conten ... 30x500.jpg

Guys remember the turbochargers speed is not as variable and inefficient as in street cars. We want it to maintain a certain speed range to be in boost as much as possible. So the increased moment of inertia is not that detrimental as you might think. In fact a clutch might be heavier and prone to wear and thus failure.

.....
I mean no offence here but I don't think you're grasping what is being discussed so we'll agree to just drop it so this thread doesn't grow 20 pages.
What I will say is what you posted has no relevance to the system that is employed in Formula 1 and is also not restricted by a set of regulations that prevent certain operations.
ie. The use of a clutch is driven by the restrictive regulations and the ingenuity of the engineers to compensate for that and find away around said rules.

[MHR650]

This is what the early prototypes looked like.

https://www.trucks.com/wp-content/uploa ... ressor.jpg

That is a 2-stage electric compressor, nothing to do with an Eturbo. Both sides are compressor stages, the left side is the low-pressure stage, the air flows out of it, through the crossover tube into the high-pressure stage on the right then they use is to supply compressed air to fuel cells.

[PlatinumZealot]

@Ghost and @Stivala

Too long to respond in detail.
I am gonna leave this here courtesy of Garrett :

Notice there are no clutch mechanisms.

https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric- ... t-e-turbo/

https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-conten ... 30x500.jpg

Guys remember the turbochargers speed is not as variable and inefficient as in street cars. We want it to maintain a certain speed range to be in boost as much as possible. So the increased moment of inertia is not that detrimental as you might think. In fact a clutch might be heavier and prone to wear and thus failure.

.....
I mean no offence here but I don't think you're grasping what is being discussed so we'll agree to just drop it so this thread doesn't grow 20 pages.
What I will say is what you posted has no relevance to the system that is employed in Formula 1 and is also not restricted by a set of regulations that prevent certain operations.
ie. The use of a clutch is driven by the restrictive regulations and the ingenuity of the engineers to compensate for that and find away around said rules.

Garrett states that this technology is used in formula 1.

I can link the video of the actual Garret rep saying that if you like. Why resist? Lol

I recall that you have been a MGUH "clutch" promoter ever since hybrid regulations were finalized in 2013 so I understand your disbelief.

[henry]

How much kW was the MGUH estimated at again?

~80kW has been a common estimate.

It’s one I’ve used myself and was “confirmed” when Andy Cowell suggested the max discharge on the ES at 200kW.

Looking at anti lag if we assume the assembly has to be accelerated from 50000 rpm to 100000 rpm then I estimate the energy required at 26kJ.

If the acceleration is effected by the MGU-H at 80kW it would take 330msec. Which seems too slow. The MGU-H might possibly do short durations at 200kW, the ES limit, in which case the time would be 130msec. Whatever the time this method would consume 0.25MJ if used just 10 times in a lap.

If the acceleration came from fuel driving the turbine, there is sufficient energy in 0.6g of fuel. If this were burned in one Max fuel cycle, at say 8000rpm, the overall efficiency of the turbine output would need to be 20%, which seems quite doable. At 50% efficiency they would need to burn only 0.25g of fuel. It looks as though anti lag using a single firing of a jet turbine, bang, might be quite an efficient strategy if the componentry can survive it.

[gruntguru]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

Very small inertia advantage (which is easily overcome by motoring the assembly with the MGUH) versus a significant reliability risk and a small weight penalty.

I don't believe any of the teams are using a clutch.