FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Sombrero]

The main 'confidential' requests of the seven teams at the FIA

1) Why was the agreement confidential and not communicated more transparently?

2) Why did the FIA come to the conclusion that it is unable to go all the way on doubts about the full legality of the Ferrari Power Unit?

3) Is the FIA able to act fully as a regulator in the light of the end of the investigation?

Source : BBC Sport

[Just_a_fan]

but then again I'm just a fan

Er, I'm just a fan...

[3jawchuck]

I think DAS should be banned now before Australia if it wont be allowed next season it just seems more fair but then again I'm just a fan and maybe F1 has always been about who cheats best.

It makes more sense to allow it for a season rather than ban immediately. The team has done work on something they were told would be within the regulations and they should reap the benefits of their labour. I also think that if Ferrari's PU only takes advantage of loopholes, they should be allowed to use it for at least a year. What's the point in innovating if the FIA just close the loopholes immediately?

[strad]

maybe F1 has always been about who cheats best.

UH Yes in a way it has. Some call it exploiting loopholes but I think that just a way to ratify cheating. F1 has a long history some by storied marques and revered names that is cheating rationalized by calling it exploiting loopholes.

[DiogoBrand]

I may very well be wrong about this, because the information I'm basing this around is all obtained from posts around this forum and not necessarily reputable sources, as well as my own flawed interpretation from them, but I believe Ferrari's exploit is more or less like this:
From what I read, the fuel flow meter takes 4 000 measurements per second, so I believe they've managed to time these measurements and pump a tiny bit more fuel when the flow is not being measured, which would explaing the FIA adding a second flow meter that the teams can't get data from. I know it would be pretty much impossible to alter the flow rate 4 000 times per second, but from the 5 minutes of research I've done in the matter, that's the only thing I could think of.

[Ced]

Imagine for a moment the reaction of the 7 other teams when ferrari starts disappearing again on the straights in Melbourne ..

[JordanMugen]

The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

The proposal for the breakaway Grand Prix World Championship sure amounted to a lot last time... Not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Pri ... way_series
https://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns05211.html

I wouldn't hold my breath, as these Grand Prix teams can barely agree on anything as is..

The Formula One Teams' Association have sensationally confirmed they are to form a breakaway series, causing the greatest upheaval in the sport's 60-year history.

Following a meeting of the eight teams that currently form FOTA - Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, Toyota, BMW Sauber, Brawn GP, Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso - they have all declined to enter F1 for 2010.

Despite weeks of negotiations with FIA president Max Mosley, the two bodies have failed to find a compromise, leaving the sport in total chaos.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090622154 ... %2C00.html

"Sure you will"

[TAG]

They should host talks of leaving to force equal treatment. I dont think F1 needs to really do very much to change. All they have to learn to do is to treat Ferrari the same way they would treat Williams or Renault. Like when they banned Renault for cheating in the Late 2000's. Or when they have stopped/banned a lot of the development and advanced engineering by Williams in the 90's. Or how every time a team like for example Sauber in 2011 comes out with a component that did not meet technical specification. They were immediately excluded from race results like in the Australian GP of that year. Or last years Renault disqualification at the Japanese GP.

Its just amazing how they have time to enforce rules and regulations on some teams but not all...
All they have to do is learn to be fair. Mercedes is smart they know the FIA wont let them slip so they consult them during development to avoid problems but the thing I dont get is when the FIA untimely decides to not allow a system like DAS. For the following year well why not exclude it for this year... They are basically giving them a one time pass to cheat this year but also banning it so Mercedes uses this system that's technically legal but also not worth researching for the other teams. I think DAS should be banned now before Australia if it wont be allowed next season it just seems more fair but then again I'm just a fan and maybe F1 has always been about who cheats best.

I find it hilarious that you bring up Mercedes' DAS in a discussion about Ferrari's PU being deemed and then doubled down as suspicious by the FiA as being the same type of loophole exploitation. Unless I missed the press released of Ferrari going to the FiA and explaining to them their idea on increasing fuel flow and the FiA saying it was okay with them.

In DAS, there are no rules so what Mercedes did and got approval from the FiA as it being legal was develop an area that hadn't been thought of previously. Real innovation that then demanded a change in the rules for the following year. Not because it was illegal but because they wanted to spare teams the expense of developing their own version for 2021.

Ferrari's loophole is a way to skirt around the measurement of fuel flow, something that was and still is illegal. Only delusion or desperation would rationalize and equate the two.

[saviour stivala]

Ferrari have been in Formula One longer than any other team. When someone mentions F1 today, one of the first things people think of is Ferrari.
I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams

https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1

The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

" Can walk away and start a series with a governing body of their choosing". You certainly don't know what you are talking about.

[CRazyLemon]

Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).

Which also means it can't prove it didn't breach the rules. And, crucially, Ferrari wasn't able to prove it hadn't broken the rules.

That last bit is the bit that most people, including all Ferrari fans, are ignoring.

If Ferrari could prove they were legal, there wouldn't be an issue would there? They would demonstrate it and the FIA would say ""they're legal". That they can't do so doesn't mean they're legal, it means they're probably illegal but the prosecutor (the FIA) couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were cheating.

The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.

If I accuse you of eating the last pie and you say you didn't. I may not be able to prove you ate it, but my 'suspicion' still stands against you, also you may not be able to prove you didn't eat it. So then are you guilty because you cannot prove your innocence? I don't think it isn't being ignored, I think it's difficult to prove you didn't do something if there's no evidence. Surely if no evidence can be found against, evidence to exonerate could also be lacking.

[Mr.G]

They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal.

Any increase of fuel flow beyond regulated limits is a breach of the technical regulations. No matter where in the fuel system they do it or what they do to achieve that. No ifs, no buts.

If they did do that, however, it was certainly a clever method that is hard to prove adequately. That is obvious as they haven't been disqualified yet. It probably wasn't a simple expandable pipe, that would likely be one of the first things checked.

Maybe is something else, but I think the expendable fuel line is the most plausible. A lot of things pointing to it (new max 2dl of fuel in fuel line rule, additional sensor before ICE, FIA confiscated exactly this part of engine, the advantage looks like they can burn more fuel).

And again - after the fuel sensor once the measurement is done and you don't have obvious fuel storage component (it's just fuel line which is flexible in diameter - no rule against that) you are legal... Once again like the RBR flexible wings passed static test but on videos obviously bending beyond the limits. Here the same passed the first measurement but but on the second sensor they see it's abused but within the rules is legal because second sensor is not/wasn't mandatory... So FIA knows what's going on, but can act because they can not ban Ferrari from having "rubber" fuel line instead of "metalic"...

[bluechris]

They did something clever - they are breaching the fuel flow limits in such way that it cannot be considered illegal.

Any increase of fuel flow beyond regulated limits is a breach of the technical regulations. No matter where in the fuel system they do it or what they do to achieve that. No ifs, no buts.

If they did do that, however, it was certainly a clever method that is hard to prove adequately. That is obvious as they haven't been disqualified yet. It probably wasn't a simple expandable pipe, that would likely be one of the first things checked.

Maybe is something else, but I think the expendable fuel line is the most plausible. A lot of things pointing to it (new max 2dl of fuel in fuel line rule, additional sensor before ICE, FIA confiscated exactly this part of engine, the advantage looks like they can burn more fuel).

And again - after the fuel sensor once the measurement is done and you don't have obvious fuel storage component (it's just fuel line which is flexible in diameter - no rule against that) you are legal... Once again like the RBR flexible wings passed static test but on videos obviously bending beyond the limits. Here the same passed the first measurement but but on the second sensor they see it's abused but within the rules is legal because second sensor is not/wasn't mandatory... So FIA knows what's going on, but can act because they can not ban Ferrari from having "rubber" fuel line instead of "metalic"...

If that was the case and the 2nd sensor grabbed the trick the FIA would had told them immediately to stop that and things would had been simple, but that just not be the case here since Ferrari as it seems can continue doing it?

[etusch]

Ferrari have been in Formula One longer than any other team. When someone mentions F1 today, one of the first things people think of is Ferrari.
I should point out that I am a big Ferrari fan, but I am a fan of the sport more. As a fan, you love it when all the teams are fighting for the same positions and there’s no way of knowing who will come out on top – think Germany and Brazil last year. I accept that some will argue (quite possibly correctly) that, without Ferrari to keep them in check, Mercedes could continue to dominate in the hybrid era. Although hopefully, the more level field provided by the budget cap will mitigate this possibility and the dissemination of the Ferrari team personnel across the remaining teams would raise the levels of some teams

https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1

The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

That old story. If there is not Ferrari, zero affect on me McLaren is more important than Ferrari. But I don't say ferrari need to go but need to just one another team in every aspect and when they breach the rules they must be penalised. Every team must be same for fia. Williams haas or racing must be same with ferrari or Mercedes. They must gain same when they do same and when penalised it must be same too. Fia is very very bad in that.

[bluechris]

https://drivetribe.com/p/is-it-time-for ... organic_F1

The Seven, or 9, can walk away and start a free-to-air series that doesn't owe billions in debt, with a governing body of their choosing. F1 could fade away, and without F1 what is FIA? Their junior series would collapse without a destination. Ferrari would take an incalculable hit on promotion and brand.

So the 7 will be declining to sign for 2021, for the time being.

That old story. If there is not Ferrari, zero affect on me McLaren is more important than Ferrari. But I don't say ferrari need to go but need to just one another team in every aspect and when they breach the rules they must be penalised. Every team must be same for fia. Williams haas or racing must be same with ferrari or Mercedes. They must gain same when they do same and when penalised it must be same too. Fia is very very bad in that.

+1 and fully agree on that

[mafeotul]

Following accusations from rival teams (but with no team having protested). The governing body (FIA) said it wasn’t confident that it could prove FERRARI had been in breach of the rules. (Material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach).

Which also means it can't prove it didn't breach the rules. And, crucially, Ferrari wasn't able to prove it hadn't broken the rules.

That last bit is the bit that most people, including all Ferrari fans, are ignoring.

If Ferrari could prove they were legal, there wouldn't be an issue would there? They would demonstrate it and the FIA would say ""they're legal". That they can't do so doesn't mean they're legal, it means they're probably illegal but the prosecutor (the FIA) couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were cheating.

The distinction is subtle (actually it isn't) but it's key to legal proceedings.

If I accuse you of eating the last pie and you say you didn't. I may not be able to prove you ate it, but my 'suspicion' still stands against you, also you may not be able to prove you didn't eat it. So then are you guilty because you cannot prove your innocence? I don't think it isn't being ignored, I think it's difficult to prove you didn't do something if there's no evidence. Surely if no evidence can be found against, evidence to exonerate could also be lacking.

For me, the entire situation is simple. Ignoring the absolute shameful PR stunt pulled by the FIA with the first statement, there are two key aspects here which can not be refuted, changed or ignored.

If a governing body uses the term “SETTLEMENT” it automatically involves both parties at a loss of something and at a gain. A settlement cannot be conceived by both parties not having these two key aspect in the matter. Which ultimately proves that Ferrari had irregularities and the FIA had severe structural problems in both managing, enforcing and investigating set issues in a timely manner to produce a conclusive report. Something a governing body should do, regardless of complexity and political positions of both parties involved.

And last but not least. There is another key aspect here. With a small plus one. The complexity of the issue generated a complex answer. Therefore landing the most ambiguous result i have seen in my life when it comes to legality. The FIA has not stated the following line. “The Scuderia Ferrari PU investigation has determined the PU is within regulations”. This is what is missing. Regardless of what fencing side all categories of people involved would like to choose. As long as that statement does not exist, the complete exoneration of the team seems and it is impossible. Given the current situation, and linking both legal terms intelligently used in set statements ( 1&2) by the FIA it is no longer just an assumption that the Ferrari PU (2019) is not fully within FIA’s understanding of the regulations. That is my understanding of the whole mess.