Mercedes W11

[zibby43]

Serrations (via reddit):

[mmred]

You can easily offset that weight by innovating with lighter materials elsewhere. There have been some credible "rumors" from someone that works at Merc GP that say the W11 is significantly lighter than the W10, and they have loads of ballast they can play with all over the car.

Sure, but compared to a shorter Mercedes car with the same materials technology you still have extra weight and less balance in sharp turns.

Technology Is a given

A lot of variables affect balance.

Sure

[Giblet]

It's not just "sure".

A longer car is not inherently unbalanced.

[mmred]

It's not just "sure".

A longer car is not inherently unbalanced.

It Is less balanced because
Compared to the same car with shorter wheelbase It Is less balanced on sharp turns.

Any comparison in every field Is Always done fixing other factors according to the Superposition principle. It s an engeneering first year fundamental

Tuning more factors, mainly suspension geometry, you can compensate the unbalance. But that doesnt change that you could have an even Better balance reducing the axial distance, so It Always give an advantage.... Design Is compromising

[ringo]

Heave spring comparison.

Mercedes still using the Belleville washers they adopted toward the end of last season.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERstJtQWoAE ... name=large

I dont think those are belleville washers. That spring may likely be a machined spring.

[Owen.C93]

RBR and TR use belleville washers. But the Mercedes looks helical. Definitely not a first in motorsport to use machined springs.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's not just "sure".

A longer car is not inherently unbalanced.

It Is less balanced because
Compared to the same car with shorter wheelbase It Is less balanced on sharp turns.

Any comparison in every field Is Always done fixing other factors according to the Superposition principle. It s an engeneering first year fundamental

Tuning more factors, mainly suspension geometry, you can compensate the unbalance. But that doesnt change that you could have an even Better balance reducing the axial distance, so It Always give an advantage.... Design Is compromising

Longer cars tend to be more stable in corners.
Short cars are more snappy..

Smaller radius of gyration
Bigger and faster shifts in load transfer coz less distance between the wheels..

Think of Mercedes as a bus and RedBull as mini

[zibby43]

Heave spring comparison.

Mercedes still using the Belleville washers they adopted toward the end of last season.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERstJtQWoAE ... name=large

I dont think those are belleville washers. That spring may likely be a machined spring.
https://www.designworldonline.com/uploa ... prings.jpg

They started using them down the stretch at the end of last season.

It looked to me, at a glance, like they had carried the design choice over for this year.

W10:



"However, one non-aero part that did appear on the Mercedes in both Singapore and Sochi was new – and is almost certainly related to the expected ban on hydraulic suspensions for 2021. The new component was a different version of the front suspension heave spring.

The heave spring on an F1 car controls the vertical stiffness of the suspension. On the Mercedes of the last few years, the spring rate was hydraulically-controlled. Internal valves would determine the rate of flow from one chamber to another and thereby control the stiffness. But, following the example of Red Bull, the spring rate of the new component is determined by Belleville washers. These are cone-shaped springs and are often used in preference to conventional coil springs because they are much easier to package."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Nkwyq.html

Also discussed here:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gary-and ... 39677.html

Merc's old setup was hydraulically actuated. It looked like this:



It wouldn’t make much sense to revert, considering the rule changes coming up in ‘21.

Looks pretty similar to the end of ‘19 setup to me.

[OO7]

RBR and TR use belleville washers. But the Mercedes looks helical. Definitely not a first in motorsport to use machined springs.

The Mercedes W11 springs don't look helical to me at all, so I'd guess that they're Belleville washers.

BTW do have any info on machined springs used in motorsport? I've search, specifically for pictures, but nothing much has turned up.

[ringo]

Heave spring comparison.

Mercedes still using the Belleville washers they adopted toward the end of last season.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERstJtQWoAE ... name=large

I dont think those are belleville washers. That spring may likely be a machined spring.
https://www.designworldonline.com/uploa ... prings.jpg

They started using them down the stretch at the end of last season.

It looked to me, at a glance, like they had carried the design choice over for this year.

W10:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/gBCqK ... 413db814ad

"However, one non-aero part that did appear on the Mercedes in both Singapore and Sochi was new – and is almost certainly related to the expected ban on hydraulic suspensions for 2021. The new component was a different version of the front suspension heave spring.

The heave spring on an F1 car controls the vertical stiffness of the suspension. On the Mercedes of the last few years, the spring rate was hydraulically-controlled. Internal valves would determine the rate of flow from one chamber to another and thereby control the stiffness. But, following the example of Red Bull, the spring rate of the new component is determined by Belleville washers. These are cone-shaped springs and are often used in preference to conventional coil springs because they are much easier to package."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Nkwyq.html

Also discussed here:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gary-and ... 39677.html

Merc's old setup was hydraulically actuated. It looked like this:

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg

It wouldn’t make much sense to revert, considering the rule changes coming up in ‘21.

Looks pretty similar to the end of ‘19 setup to me.

I do not think they are washers, maybe the F1 website got it all wrong; as they do sometimes. Washers will take compression and have spring behavior, but when it comes to rebound i do not think the spring rate will be existent if the force on the element is outside of the pre-load on the washers (as the washers wont exhibit spring behavior if they lose pre-load and aren't in contact). Using washers is very limited then in terms of the displacement of that heave element to maintain the preload. From what i see, those springs are machined springs and not washers. Look on the big gaps between it.
I could be wrong though if there is further evidence suggesting that the element is made of washers.

[ringo]

RBR and TR use belleville washers. But the Mercedes looks helical. Definitely not a first in motorsport to use machined springs.

The Mercedes W11 springs don't look helical to me at all, so I'd guess that they're Belleville washers.

BTW do have any info on machined springs used in motorsport? I've search, specifically for pictures, but nothing much has turned up.

I think previous red bull cars may have some clearer pictures. And the spring does not have to be helical because it is machined into any shape that is desired. It is not wound like a wire spring.

From this image, these appear to be conical washers as was mentioned.

but possibly this varies across teams and setups?

[ringo]

If these are washers, and as they appear not to be touching the next adjacent set of thicker washers, then the heave element is quite complicated.
It is a series of spools or cups that the washers sit on, and each spool can float axially and seat at the back of the next adjacent spool, followed by a pilot shaft that also floats and centers the heave element.

[dren]

If these are washers, and as they appear not to be touching the next adjacent set of thicker washers, then the heave element is quite complicated.
It is a series of spools or cups that the washers sit on, and each spool can float axially and seat at the back of the next adjacent spool, followed by a pilot shaft that also floats and centers the heave element.

[ringo]

Nice image. Compare the gaps to the image i posted above. only two washers touch.
Whereas in the image you posted the washers are all touching each other.

[Owen.C93]

RBR and TR use belleville washers. But the Mercedes looks helical. Definitely not a first in motorsport to use machined springs.

The Mercedes W11 springs don't look helical to me at all, so I'd guess that they're Belleville washers.

BTW do have any info on machined springs used in motorsport? I've search, specifically for pictures, but nothing much has turned up.

The ends of the spring unit look to thin down in a helical fashion to me. It could be a 2 or 3 start spring that would reduce the angle.

https://www.abssac.co.uk/catalogue/v/ma ... /#/page/13

It could be just composite washers of course, they look very similar.

https://www.mw-ind.com/wp-content/uploa ... _flyer.pdf

Nice image. Compare the gaps to the image i posted above. only two washers touch.
Whereas in the image you posted the washers are all touching each other.

Probably a bit of droop going in all the images we see with the cars up on stands. Would they necessarily run pre load when off the ground?