DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

[izzy]

Think 'monotonous'.

yes!
Etymology
μονός (monós) +‎ τόνος (tónos)

Adjective
μονότονος • (monótonos) m (feminine μονότονη, neuter μονότονο)

(music) monotonous, flat
dull, boring

i hope everybody knew this

[jjn9128]

i don't know why they used that strange word 'monotonic'. When i look it up it's about maths, not engineering. I'm taking @Xwang's idea as something like they could pull a lever to engage a toe-changing mechanism that then they drive by rotating the steering wheel for a second, still in its normal plane

sometimes i think FIA write the rules in this convoluted way specially to let teams hunt for ways round them!

You're suggesting engineering isn't maths!?

maths is abstract isn't it, it's something you apply in engineering. and when i look up 'monotonic' it doesn't seem to have anything to do with a racing car whatsoever! Why would anybody use that word in F1 regulations? if they actually wanted them to be clear

It just means that as x increases y also has to increase. So steer left (could steer right like a tiller but provided y increases with x) then both the wheels have to go left and the inverse. This toe mechanism steers the wheels in opposite directions, so not monotonic. It's a word I used in my PhD so it has some function in engineering .

[izzy]

It just means that as x increases y also has to increase. So steer left (could steer right like a tiller but provided y increases with x) then both the wheels have to go left and the inverse. This toe mechanism steers the wheels in opposite directions, so not monotonic. It's a word I used in my PhD so it has some function in engineering .

Ah okay so it can reverse, when the steering wheel x variable reverses? this is a slightly different definition again! i'm beginning to lose count but you know what i'm going to say now doncha?

you have the system work in the corners at the beginning and end of the main straight : they pull the lever and the inside wheel turns, monotically, just a bit less than the outside wheel. Yay parallel all down the straight. At the other end, pull the lever and the wheels steer, monotically, but one more than the other, opposite, yay toe out again

This is what happens when you let Nikolas Tombasis write the rules

[henry]

Monotonic is already in the regulations. It’s been there for years.

5.5.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

For the steering it means that any incremental movement of the steering in one direction must always move the steered wheels in the same direction as any other incremental movement in that direction. It doesn’t mean that both the steered wheels must move the same amount. Normally, because of various kinematic features, such as Ackerman, the wheels don’t move the same amount.

I think that in 2021 the teams could use a similar mechanism to DAS that would provide a further, variable, kinematic adjustment to the front wheel alignment. A sort of programmable Ackerman. They would be restricted to only using rotary movement of the steering wheel to drive it.

[izzy]

Monotonic is already in the regulations. It’s been there for years.

5.5.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

For the steering it means that any incremental movement of the steering in one direction must always move the steered wheels in the same direction as any other incremental movement in that direction. It doesn’t mean that both the steered wheels must move the same amount. Normally, because of various kinematic features, such as Ackerman, the wheels don’t move the same amount.

I think that in 2021 the teams could use a similar mechanism to DAS that would provide a further, variable, kinematic adjustment to the front wheel alignment. A sort of programmable Ackerman. They would be restricted to only using rotary movement of the steering wheel to drive it.

Ah okay, well that's good to know, it's quite a nice word once you get used to it, and yes Ackerman is what i was speculating then. Tho there's that clause saying the inboard ends of the track rods have to stay the same distance apart now, that doesn't seem easy to get round

[henry]

Monotonic is already in the regulations. It’s been there for years.

5.5.3 At any given engine speed the driver torque demand map must be monotonically increasing for an increase in accelerator pedal position.

For the steering it means that any incremental movement of the steering in one direction must always move the steered wheels in the same direction as any other incremental movement in that direction. It doesn’t mean that both the steered wheels must move the same amount. Normally, because of various kinematic features, such as Ackerman, the wheels don’t move the same amount.

I think that in 2021 the teams could use a similar mechanism to DAS that would provide a further, variable, kinematic adjustment to the front wheel alignment. A sort of programmable Ackerman. They would be restricted to only using rotary movement of the steering wheel to drive it.

Ah okay, well that's good to know, it's quite a nice word once you get used to it, and yes Ackerman is what i was speculating then. Tho there's that clause saying the inboard ends of the track rods have to stay the same distance apart now, that doesn't seem easy to get round

If you move the track rod ends in planes vertical to the bulkhead they might stay the same distance apart but change their location in relation to the hub steering arm, and hence realign the wheels. whether that’s useful or worthwhile, given the monotonic restriction, would need some studies.

The 2021 regs restrict a lot of the front suspension geometry, defining the placing of outboard suspension components. Who knows what will be possible next year.

[MtthsMlw]

Updated 2021 tech regs
Makes it quite clear.

[henry]

Updated 2021 tech regs
Makes it quite clear.
https://i.imgur.com/HCF8ZSv.png

The “only translate in Y”nremoves the opportunity to adjust toe by moving in the plane at right angles to the bulkhead. I think that change makes the rules bullet proof.

[Pyrone89]

From a neutral fans perspective you are hoping this gets banned, to avoid the 7th season in a row where Mercedes has a car that is miles ahead (and since 2017 it doesn't have an interesting inner-team battle to add insult to injury).

If you are a Mercedes fan, you will of course say it is legal and a brilliant piece of engineering.

[apexcontrol]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

[bluechris]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.

[MikeTekRacing]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.

I think wheels are exempted from Aero rules. Otherwise all cars are ilegal

[Pyrone89]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.

I am worried, seeing at their track record, that the W11 is indeed dominant even without DAS. But every bit helps.
Getting the feeling that the Mercedes dominance is based around the long car with less rake being a superior concept vs Newey's stubborn high rake concept.

[Just_a_fan]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

Interesting article. Says nothing about the legality of the DAS system.

[Just_a_fan]

it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ

That is what i am saying from the beginning and its what Newey pointed but then he kept quiet.
I believe RedBul will play the aero card when they see how they compare to Mercedes, then but bye DAS.
Even though Mercedes i think don't need DAS to be dominant this year again.

Newey says "aero" because that's what he is famous for. RedBull are hoping that Newey's reputation for aero will blind the stewards from looking at the actual situation. "Newey says it's aero and everyone knows he's a God" type response, in effect.