FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Just_a_fan]

Unbelievable!
Now personal attacks have started and Jean TODT is in the target because, apparently, he has been Ferrari Boss in the past.

I am not a tifosi but I would really love to see Ferrari this year with a clear advantage regarding PU performance so that many people will recall that Ferrari knows how to built a F1 PU.

I think that if Ferrari have a big PU advantage this year, the teams will be protesting every race. That will put the FIA in a tricky spot, in terms of bad PR at least.

Why? 6 years in row Mercedes had the best pu as matter performance and reliability but suddenly if Ferrari does for once a better pu then the FIA will be in a tricky spot? I don't remember anyone saying the last year's that Mercedes does something fishy with their pu but for them to be dominant it's perfectly fine right?

Mercedes haven't been investigated and had to do a deal with the FIA to keep it all hush-hush.

[gshevlin]

Yes, I am struggling to remember any complaints from rival powerplant suppliers or teams about the legality of the design or race operation of the powerplant in any car. The consensus from the beginning was that Mercedes started earlier than rival suppliers, and did a much better job initially.

[TAG]

The questions are likely secret bc. they would embarrass the FIA

So, according to the Daily Mail (yeah, but article does seem rather solid)

I have to say, it really reads populistic.

I highly doubt that Todt would have increminated himself. Allegations towards a connection between his past Ferrari role and his FIA precidency are reasonable or not aside, he is not going to admit to that sort in what kind of form possible. The part of a "secret deal" just looks like a rehash about the FIA's statement of settlement, including the part where it is saying that Ferrari has to give permission to release details. It's nowhere a stretch to reason that for yourself.

Also, I highly doubt the FIA would have taken the chance for any leaks in the press.

Watching the latest from Peter Windsor, a guy who has great insight on drivers and is very in touch with the inner working of the sport; He mentioned in his vlog while en route to Australia. That Bernie Ecclestone and Jean Todd would have done a much better job of keeping this sort of things in the back room and preventing it from bubbling up to the surface the way this has turned into a PR fiasco.

I generally agree with Peter on most things but his statement on it is utter BS. (starts around the 1:30 mark) I want and pay for a sport that is clean and free of "back room deals" I want F1 not WWF1.

[Schumix]

Reading all this for me it looks like Mercedes' political games ruined F1...

You are going to have to explain that, because they aren't the ones accused of bending/braking the rules, or getting the benefits of secret deals with the governing body.

It's naive to think this is about the engine... It's about the Concorde agreement, money, new rules, keeping competitors busy, distraction from their own team, ... Classic Lauda, Toto tactics... I don't saying they doing something wrong, just for me it's too much. Mercedes is too cocky, and arrogant, like they got "god complex"...

In a long term view, Mercedes may be currently playing a political game in order to be the "new" most influent team in the F1, more or less what Ferrari is currently in the F1 panorama (Ferrari veto has been already officialy confirmed by the FIA for the 2021 Concorde agreement). It may even be possible to link this political game with the last rumours we heard regarding Mercedes soon retiring from F1. We can relate this to your idea of "god complex".
Based on their hystory and results, there is clearly a place for Mercedes but along side with Ferrari in the last circle of F1 power (which I think they are already in, but without the veto), instead of trying to be the Ferrari counter power.

But in the short term view, Mercedes is clearly interested to understand what is the secret of the Ferrari PU. This is normal, F1 is also about this.
What is criticable in this point is that they may have a short memory (Mercedes have agreed in the past at least one "confidential settlement" with the FIA) and that, the effects of their current communication upon the F1 fans would lead to create, if they loss their dominance, a discredit to the 2020 F1 champions and the FIA. This is what we can already feel, when reading people here. And this feeling is sad for people as we who are looking for fights in each F1 grand prix of the season.
May be I am dreaming too much. But I would love to see a very close fights this year, starting this weekend, whatever people will say against FIA

[bluechris]

Why? 6 years in row Mercedes had the best pu as matter performance and reliability but suddenly if Ferrari does for once a better pu then the FIA will be in a tricky spot? I don't remember anyone saying the last year's that Mercedes does something fishy with their pu but for them to be dominant it's perfectly fine right?

Because the other seven teams believe (atleast how i interpret their actions) Ferrari got that advantage by breaking/bending the rules, and that the FIA is covering it up.

And how they know that? You see something is not right here. Where we saw something concrete of what Ferrari did or didn't? Its speculation from the other teams after the Monza incident where Hamilton wasn't able to pass, but simultaneously everyone is happy when Mercedes pressed the button in all the qualifying the last year's and the oil was burned with the party modes. All is ok with that, right?

Reading all this for me it looks like Mercedes' political games ruined F1...

You are going to have to explain that, because they aren't the ones accused of bending/braking the rules, or getting the benefits of secret deals with the governing body.

It's naive to think this is about the engine... It's about the Concorde agreement, money, new rules, keeping competitors busy, distraction from their own team, ... Classic Lauda, Toto tactics... I don't saying they doing something wrong, just for me it's too much. Mercedes is too cocky, and arrogant, like they got "god complex"...

+1 everything is happening for politic reasons.

[Capharol]

Why? 6 years in row Mercedes had the best pu as matter performance and reliability but suddenly if Ferrari does for once a better pu then the FIA will be in a tricky spot? I don't remember anyone saying the last year's that Mercedes does something fishy with their pu but for them to be dominant it's perfectly fine right?

Because the other seven teams believe (atleast how i interpret their actions) Ferrari got that advantage by breaking/bending the rules, and that the FIA is covering it up.

And how they know that? You see something is not right here. Where we saw something concrete of what Ferrari did or didn't? Its speculation from the other teams after the Monza incident where Hamilton wasn't able to pass, but simultaneously everyone is happy when Mercedes pressed the button in all the qualifying the last year's and the oil was burned with the party modes. All is ok with that, right?

yes they do as AMuS reported ....

Original text

Die Teams zweifeln, dass die Verdachtsmomente gegen Ferrari nicht ausreichen. Einer erzählt uns: „Es gibt die Software, die zeigt, dass Ferrari in bestimmten Phasen den Durchfluss-Sensor im Benzinsystem manipuliert hat. Es gibt Leistungsdaten, die eindeutig belegen, dass Ferrari zeitweise deutlich mehr Power aktivieren konnte. Diese Daten stehen im krassen Gegensatz zu den Kundenmotoren, bei denen das offensichtlich nicht möglich war.“

Translated from German:

The teams doubt that the suspicions against Ferrari are insufficient. One tells us: “There is software that shows that Ferrari manipulated the flow sensor in the gasoline system in certain phases. There are performance data that clearly prove that Ferrari was able to activate significantly more power at times.
This data is in stark contrast to the customer engines, where this was obviously not possible. "

[LM10]

Because the other seven teams believe (atleast how i interpret their actions) Ferrari got that advantage by breaking/bending the rules, and that the FIA is covering it up.

And how they know that? You see something is not right here. Where we saw something concrete of what Ferrari did or didn't? Its speculation from the other teams after the Monza incident where Hamilton wasn't able to pass, but simultaneously everyone is happy when Mercedes pressed the button in all the qualifying the last year's and the oil was burned with the party modes. All is ok with that, right?

yes they do as AMuS reported ....

Original text

Die Teams zweifeln, dass die Verdachtsmomente gegen Ferrari nicht ausreichen. Einer erzählt uns: „Es gibt die Software, die zeigt, dass Ferrari in bestimmten Phasen den Durchfluss-Sensor im Benzinsystem manipuliert hat. Es gibt Leistungsdaten, die eindeutig belegen, dass Ferrari zeitweise deutlich mehr Power aktivieren konnte. Diese Daten stehen im krassen Gegensatz zu den Kundenmotoren, bei denen das offensichtlich nicht möglich war.“

Translated from German:

The teams doubt that the suspicions against Ferrari are insufficient. One tells us: “There is software that shows that Ferrari manipulated the flow sensor in the gasoline system in certain phases. There are performance data that clearly prove that Ferrari was able to activate significantly more power at times.
This data is in stark contrast to the customer engines, where this was obviously not possible. "

Which software can show flow sensor manipulation from another team? This sounds like hacking to get other’s data (telling as a non-expert).
I can understand that you can show how much power might be available with some performance/gps tools, but being able to tell through data that it’s being done by manipulating flow sensor is a completely different level.

[bosyber]

I think AMuS are saying the FIA has that data, in combination with the fuel there is, and physics as to how much power they can get from a liter of fuel - if it is more than that, but no extra fuel visible (and presumably other ways of increasing it are ruled out), then the only explanation left is more fuel, but bypassing fuel measurement. That's very likely to be the case, though the FIA seems to not feel they have a smoking gun, and those teams saying it is have their own motives for pressing the points, and possibly their own calculations and data they prefer not to share with each other and the FIA, but might if they go to court.

About people quoting my earlier post where I quoted the Daily mail, chill a bit, I did not say I fully credit the full article, but still, as AMuS' article shows, there are definitely reasons the other teams will not let this go. And also, sure Todt was voted in, but lets not forget that last time there was no other candidate; that election wasn't all that open or democratic, and the teams had little influence; now he did this deal (incriminated? he probably sees it as him taking the final decision, as is his role), and the other teams have motive to destabilise him. I don't think in the last few years he has shown a huge amount of deftness in dealing with teams' politics, so not sure why it would be odd he wasn't now either.

[Mr.G]

Because the other seven teams believe (atleast how i interpret their actions) Ferrari got that advantage by breaking/bending the rules, and that the FIA is covering it up.

And how they know that? You see something is not right here. Where we saw something concrete of what Ferrari did or didn't? Its speculation from the other teams after the Monza incident where Hamilton wasn't able to pass, but simultaneously everyone is happy when Mercedes pressed the button in all the qualifying the last year's and the oil was burned with the party modes. All is ok with that, right?

yes they do as AMuS reported ....

Original text

Die Teams zweifeln, dass die Verdachtsmomente gegen Ferrari nicht ausreichen. Einer erzählt uns: „Es gibt die Software, die zeigt, dass Ferrari in bestimmten Phasen den Durchfluss-Sensor im Benzinsystem manipuliert hat. Es gibt Leistungsdaten, die eindeutig belegen, dass Ferrari zeitweise deutlich mehr Power aktivieren konnte. Diese Daten stehen im krassen Gegensatz zu den Kundenmotoren, bei denen das offensichtlich nicht möglich war.“

Translated from German:

The teams doubt that the suspicions against Ferrari are insufficient. One tells us: “There is software that shows that Ferrari manipulated the flow sensor in the gasoline system in certain phases. There are performance data that clearly prove that Ferrari was able to activate significantly more power at times.
This data is in stark contrast to the customer engines, where this was obviously not possible. "

AMuS is German magazine and it's one of Toto's "weapons"... Everything that Mercedes does is ingenious on AMuS and Ferrari is the worst... Even now there is article about peoples in carantene due to corona virus and the article picture is Ferrari staff in masks even there is no one from Ferrari in carantene...

[rowano]

Just hypothesising as to why there is this distant stand off.

When FIA examine the FER engine and software, is there any obligation to have the engine running? If not, how would FIA prove the additional fuel flow of it is done through some clever, hidden software that manipulates the fuel flow sensor? FIA could surely say that FER have the ability to do it, FER could deny they ever used it in competitive setting. FIA want to know how it is possible to interfere with sensor to make sure no one else does it. FER tell all as long as the investigation is concluded workout substantial penalty. FIA want to keep it secret so teams can not look to exploit this in future. Possible scenario?

[izzy]

Which software can show flow sensor manipulation from another team? This sounds like hacking to get other’s data (telling as a non-expert).
I can understand that you can show how much power might be available with some performance/gps tools, but being able to tell through data that it’s being done by manipulating flow sensor is a completely different level.

it sounds like analysis of the 'performance data' comparing the works cars with the customer cars and adjusting for all the other variables? once they have the characteristics of the Haas and Alfa, they can include data like maximum battery/H input, and that gives them the power at normal peak fuel flow. And they have audio analysis

so then they have the basic efficiency of the power unit, and when it's exceeded and only for short periods it points the finger pretty clearly at the big limitation which is the 100kg/hr, but within 110kg overall. They already had the twin battery scenario covered

Then the HPP and maybe Honda and Renault engineers just have to come up with a theory, perhaps run their own experiment, et voila. So then basically they kind of know and want FIA to confirm it. And FIA won't so they get cross, because they know that it's because disqualifying Ferrari is not an option. And they reckon FIA know too, just the same, and that's why they banned leaking oil through the intercooler and added the second fuel sensor. Which Jean probably thought was progress and the best he could do in the circumstances

[Polite]

Because the other seven teams believe (atleast how i interpret their actions) Ferrari got that advantage by breaking/bending the rules, and that the FIA is covering it up.

And how they know that? You see something is not right here. Where we saw something concrete of what Ferrari did or didn't? Its speculation from the other teams after the Monza incident where Hamilton wasn't able to pass, but simultaneously everyone is happy when Mercedes pressed the button in all the qualifying the last year's and the oil was burned with the party modes. All is ok with that, right?

yes they do as AMuS reported ....

Original text

Die Teams zweifeln, dass die Verdachtsmomente gegen Ferrari nicht ausreichen. Einer erzählt uns: „Es gibt die Software, die zeigt, dass Ferrari in bestimmten Phasen den Durchfluss-Sensor im Benzinsystem manipuliert hat. Es gibt Leistungsdaten, die eindeutig belegen, dass Ferrari zeitweise deutlich mehr Power aktivieren konnte. Diese Daten stehen im krassen Gegensatz zu den Kundenmotoren, bei denen das offensichtlich nicht möglich war.“

Translated from German:

The teams doubt that the suspicions against Ferrari are insufficient. One tells us: “There is software that shows that Ferrari manipulated the flow sensor in the gasoline system in certain phases. There are performance data that clearly prove that Ferrari was able to activate significantly more power at times.
This data is in stark contrast to the customer engines, where this was obviously not possible. "

Where is this software? Why do the Germans keep making accusations in the press without bringing evidence? maybe they don't exist, or do they exist under ferrari copyright?
these are all speculations
obviously if it was something in the gray area, why should ferrari and fia provide data to other teams?
the story is going far too far and mercedes is losing appeal almost as fast as it loses power to the decrease in consumable oil ..

[RZS10]

And assuming that there is some solution which bypasses the sensor then there must be code/software activating it, unless it's somehow passive, ofc.

[strad]

I think this controversy is another thing where we will never know the truth.
.

[erikejw]

The relevant regulation that almost certainly is the basis for the dispute is this one:

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

That is a "catch all" rule that says that ANY attempt to circumvent the fuel flow limit regulation by any means is not allowed.
The statement that Ferrari cannot be found in breach of the regulations is incorrect. A team was found to have exceeded the fuel flow rate limit in 2019 and had times disallowed as a result. There was no evidence that they had tamped with any device. They were still penalized.

If I am the devils advocate.
A system to change the fuel flow rate that is positioned before the measurement point is then within the regulations.

Imagine adding another measurement point before that imagined device, then the device would break the rules.