Getting rid of refuelling?

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Miguel
Miguel
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 11:36
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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Ciro Pabón wrote: ... but no discussions about Alonso's complains on Ferrari's fuel rig, which means that the fuel thingie gives so many advantages to some teams that the chances of pitstops elliminated are something between zero and 0, nil and null or nothing and none.

On page 8, no threads yet about this (that I know):
OT: I posted my very own tinfoil hat theory on the Hungarian GP thread. It just happens that Kimi's inlap + outlap is like 3 to 4 seconds faster than the next best, including Massa, Lewis, Heikki and himself (I have to find out the exact gap). My guess is that it has nothing to do with the fuel rig and a lot to do with having a broken transponder. There has to be a reason why Kimi's second pitlane excursion wasnt timed.

And back to topic: I think banning refueling will help nobody. But I also think that using two tire compounds in one race mean using a compromise set up and a compromise tire in an otherwise no-comprimise world and, as such, a silly rule. My impression is that we should see how the new aero rules work before changing a system that has produced some great races and seasons. After all, if the pole position really reflects race pace (which it mostly does in a parc ferme setting), no overtakings should happen. Yes, I think parc-fermé plus no warm-up on sunday is detrimental to racing.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr

axle
axle
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Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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I agree with that idea...Bridgestone should take 2 control tyres to each race and each team uses the one that fits their car and strategy best...that might mix it up...

I've no real issue with refueling...but I think the amount of fuel/energy should be reduced and capped.
- Axle

Ian P.
Ian P.
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Joined: 08 Sep 2006, 21:57

Re: Fuelish Thing To Do....

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Dave K. gets my vote.
Safety is going to limit the fuel carried onboard. The days of carrying 200 to 300 L of fuel in the car are gone.
Limiting pit-stop personnel to something less than the current 12 or so just makes sense.
You want a difference between qualifying performance and race pace, then de-couple the two activities. Get rid of Parc-Ferme and open up the tyre and fuel load strategy.
A Sunday warm-up would also allow more last minute adjustments and provide a further difference between qualifying and race pace. Especially for rain situations. Good for the fans too. Remember the fans.....they are the whole reason for this exercise.
Just don't turn the races into economy and reliability events.

Ian P.
Personal motto... "Were it not for the bad.... I would have no luck at all."

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Tp4ZhvxZw[/youtube]

I doubt nowdays it will be possible

axle
axle
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Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 14:45
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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Parc-Ferme is good in a way though, means the engineers/mechanics are guarenteed some sleep!
- Axle

pgj
pgj
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Joined: 22 Mar 2006, 14:39

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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timbo wrote:I don't know... There's always debate about "how to improve the spectacle". I don't understand that. So you had little spectacle last year? So, this year you hadn't 4 championship leader changes over the 4 GPs?
Or you had great spectacle in 1988, 1992 and so on?
I mean - give teams steady technical regulations and let them do their job!
It is subjective and it depends on what you define as 'the spectacle'. Clearly you seem to view the spectacle as the whole championship calendar. Which is a top down view of F1. My definition is each individual race should be entertaining and exciting in its own right, a bottom up view of F1. I do not like the idea of a GP being reduced to a few time-trials. If there was more uncertainty in each race, then the championship could still have the number of lead changes that you describe.

Steady technical regulation is something that has disappeared under Max's tenure as FIA President. It comes back to the spectacle again. F1, collectively, needs to decide what its product is and what spectacle it wants to provide and then produce technical regulations that will deliver the product to its consumers.
Williams and proud of it.

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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pgj wrote:My definition is each individual race should be entertaining and exciting in its own right, a bottom up view of F1. I do not like the idea of a GP being reduced to a few time-trials. If there was more uncertainty in each race, then the championship could still have the number of lead changes that you describe.
I htink that if you remove fuel strategies from the equation, there would be LESS lead changes given current aero-dynamics. Hell, and not only current! In general frequent on-track battles are gone maybe from mid-80s.
Sure having to manage fuel and different weights won't make driver's life easire, but remember how much gossip was about tracktion control? But had it changed THAT much?

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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As the refuelling ban is coming back to next years design we could perhaps continue this thread.

In terms of encouraging fuel efficiency I applaud the move.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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When refuelling has provided a rare opportunity for overtaking in recent years and thus brought us certain excitement, although Swedish television never saw it that way and typicallty used that very window for commercials, I am sorry to see it go.

I just hope that the much promised "racing improvements" will cover for that.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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I am actually much surprised that the teams have proposed this solution. It may have come from Ferrari in the wake of their pit stop debacles. All teams that have suffered from pit lane closures such as BMW and McLaren may have added their voice. This problem will go away at the same time if refuelling is banned.

One cannot denie that it will save some very costly technology and resources. You can instantly do away with the refuelling riggs, the automated fuelling point covers and the need to control the temperature of the fuel. As many as three mechanics per teams will be obsolete.

The danger of pit fires is greatly reduced which will help with the management of the VIPs. If they had continued the way they do we probably had a driver WaG on fire at some time. Now they can handle the pit lane with more leasure from 2010. A lot of the protection equipment will not be needed.

Finally one has to consider that the majority of racing accidents with injuries has come from mechanics hurt in the pitlane last season. Refuelling is intrinsically unsafe.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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WhiteBlue wrote:Finally one has to consider that the majority of racing accidents with injuries has come from mechanics hurt in the pitlane last season. Refuelling is intrinsically unsafe.
So is damaging full tank in the early race accident.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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It is a point I have considered in the past. I do believe that with modern technology the risk is minimal. The last serious fire accident with unrefuelled cars was Berger in Imola's Taburello in 1988.

Since that time the technical regulations have been massively tightened on fuel bladder design, monocoque design and side impact protection. The fuel bladder has seen three or four big specification updates since then.

I guess they will have to increase the minimum weight and increase the monocoque backwards to protect the bigger fuel bladders, but fire accident risk in race should stay as low as it is.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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Anyway, my point is that refuelling has surprisingly often brought great spectacle to a rather boring show, remember Ferrari's goof with Massa's car this year, priceless!

This is if you disregard the safety aspect of course. But then again, how many pit-lane accidents have we seen and will driving around at 200 mph will ever be 100% safe?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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xpensive wrote:Anyway, my point is that refuelling has surprisingly often brought great spectacle to a rather boring show, remember Ferrari's goof with Massa's car this year, priceless!

This is if you disregard the safety aspect of course. But then again, how many pit-lane accidents have we seen and will driving around at 200 mph will ever be 100% safe?
There will still be pit stops - for tyres. And now that the tyre change itself will be the slowest part of the stop, rather than the refuelling, expect this to be somewhat rushed and prone to mistakes.

Also we should see the balance of all the cars changing more over the course of a race. How exciting would it be, for example, if the Ferrari's had the advantage on full tanks but the McLarens were able to hunt them down and close in as the fuel burnt off.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Getting rid of refuelling?

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Agree with myurr! Fuel efficiency will be rewarded by carrying less weight. That is the right way to go. Drivers will know they cannot sit behind and wait for the pit stop. They will have to risk passing the other car on track. We are in for better on track racing I say. The sorry spectacle of F1 cars going along the pitlane with a fuel hose attached will not be missed.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)