Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 23:56
kimetic wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 11:45
.... Until you've driven an EV you don't realise, what the lag is.....
does the EV have no creep ? (and no rollback either unless slope is significant ?) - so the brakes are off at rest ?

I find auto creep rather useful
does EV super response help when you've pulled away close behind someone who then faffs around with the stick ?

though controllability around town was better with older autos - is this now to be called 'lag' ? and therefore is bad ?
modern automatics use throttle mapping to enable manual-spec engines - not entirely helping town controllability imo
Older engines were allowed a throttle 'blip' to sync revs but now green rules do not allow it. Most noticeable on 'self changing manual' boxes called automatics. I think this same delay mechanism on the throttle is what gives the 'flat spot' (ok, not really a flat spot, but the 'thing' we are talking about)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 00:56
Greg Locock wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 00:16
Somebody worked out that if Victoria, Australia, went fully EV we'd need an additional 10 GW 24h a day to charge them. That's several large power stations, or if you prefer, 60 kW of solar panels per household, ie 12 times the typical installation. +storage+it won't work in winter.
Do you have a link to that analysis?

EDIT: Based on a rational estimate of 5 kWh per vehicle per day (BEV's owners will top up overnight, not refill weekly like Petrol cars). This is using the well-established stat that the average vehicle travels less than 40 kilometers per day and most electric vehicles can cover between 80-100 kilometers on 10 kWh’s.

So Multiply 5 kWh by 4.5 Million and you get 22.5 MWh's of additional power or an extra 1 MW of continuous supply over each 24hr period - that's very different from an extra 10GW of continuous supply!

Frankly, some ppl need to go back to school and learn how to perform analysis in a rational manner!
Geez, can't believe someone downvoted me, on a technical forum, for applying logic to this question! #-o

Most charging of vehicles will be in off-peak hours!
"In downforce we trust"

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 23:56
kimetic wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 11:45
.... Until you've driven an EV you don't realise, what the lag is.....
does the EV have no creep ? (and no rollback either unless slope is significant ?) - so the brakes are off at rest ?

I find auto creep rather useful
does EV super response help when you've pulled away close behind someone who then faffs around with the stick ?

though controllability around town was better with older autos - is this now to be called 'lag' ? and therefore is bad ?
modern automatics use throttle mapping to enable manual-spec engines - not entirely helping town controllability imo
Lag is lag. Diesel response has some noticeable lag. CVT has even more lag (even so I love them, but facts are facts). Old auto gearboxes have lag. EV has no lag at all, response is even faster than petrol cars with manual gearbox

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Phil
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 00:25
Older engines were allowed a throttle 'blip' to sync revs but now green rules do not allow it. Most noticeable on 'self changing manual' boxes called automatics. I think this same delay mechanism on the throttle is what gives the 'flat spot' (ok, not really a flat spot, but the 'thing' we are talking about)
What 'bliping' are you referring to exactly? I'm not aware of this being disallowed in any shape or form. A recent 2019 model BMW that I've driven automatically revs the engine when downshifting to sync gears. AFAIK so does pretty much every car with an automated sequential manual gearbox (DSG, DKG etc). Even my car with a manual gearbox does it.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Phil wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 11:33
Big Tea wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 00:25
Older engines were allowed a throttle 'blip' to sync revs but now green rules do not allow it. Most noticeable on 'self changing manual' boxes called automatics. I think this same delay mechanism on the throttle is what gives the 'flat spot' (ok, not really a flat spot, but the 'thing' we are talking about)
What 'bliping' are you referring to exactly? I'm not aware of this being disallowed in any shape or form. A recent 2019 model BMW that I've driven automatically revs the engine when downshifting to sync gears. AFAIK so does pretty much every car with an automated sequential manual gearbox (DSG, DKG etc). Even my car with a manual gearbox does it.
Yeh, on change down. I had a Vauxhall a few years back, intended to change model for model, all the same except year and found it not-so-nice on the downshift. Tried 3 cars and all were the same. I told the sales people I would not change because of it, and they looked into it and said it was an EU green thing. Then some time later I was talking to one of the top tec's for Peugeot and mentioned it and he confirmed that was what it was.
This was on the 'self changing automated' type. I had a Toyota instead :mrgreen:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 08:59
Tommy Cookers wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 23:56
kimetic wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 11:45
.... Until you've driven an EV you don't realise, what the lag is.....
does the EV have no creep ? (and no rollback either unless slope is significant ?) - so the brakes are off at rest ?

I find auto creep rather useful
does EV super response help when you've pulled away close behind someone who then faffs around with the stick ?

though controllability around town was better with older autos - is this now to be called 'lag' ? and therefore is bad ?
modern automatics use throttle mapping to enable manual-spec engines - not entirely helping town controllability imo
Lag is lag. Diesel response has some noticeable lag. CVT has even more lag (even so I love them, but facts are facts). Old auto gearboxes have lag. EV has no lag at all, response is even faster than petrol cars with manual gearbox
"Lag"?

I can only assume Andres, that you haven't had the opportunity to operate a powerful old ICE
auto-trans car, say a big 'primitive' V8, hi-stall torque-converter spooled-up hard on the brakes,
then fully mashed the gas pedal down, & yeah baby, really boomed it off the line...

& did you never get a holeshot in your MX experience? A max-torque clutch-dump is fun, too.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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J.A.W. wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 01:21
Andres125sx wrote:
12 Mar 2020, 08:59
Tommy Cookers wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 23:56

does the EV have no creep ? (and no rollback either unless slope is significant ?) - so the brakes are off at rest ?

I find auto creep rather useful
does EV super response help when you've pulled away close behind someone who then faffs around with the stick ?

though controllability around town was better with older autos - is this now to be called 'lag' ? and therefore is bad ?
modern automatics use throttle mapping to enable manual-spec engines - not entirely helping town controllability imo
Lag is lag. Diesel response has some noticeable lag. CVT has even more lag (even so I love them, but facts are facts). Old auto gearboxes have lag. EV has no lag at all, response is even faster than petrol cars with manual gearbox
"Lag"?

I can only assume Andres, that you haven't had the opportunity to operate a powerful old ICE
auto-trans car, say a big 'primitive' V8, hi-stall torque-converter spooled-up hard on the brakes,
then fully mashed the gas pedal down, & yeah baby, really boomed it off the line...
If you read my post you´ll notice I perfectly know a petrol car with manual gearbox provide the fastest response between any ICE vehicle, but even so it is no as fast an an EV of similar power. Just engine inertia causes some lag, like it or not. Pistons, cranckshaft, cylindery head... all that is a lot of weight to spin up, while electric motors does not need to spin up that mass. It is not only the torque difference wich is always in favour of EVs, it is also the motor/engine weight and inertia difference

J.A.W. wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 01:21
& did you never get a holeshot in your MX experience? A max-torque clutch-dump is fun, too.
Nope, I was close at some start, but not the holeshot I´m afraid. I think my best start was 3rd. Anycase my starts always put me in first third of the grid, so I was not that bad at all, specially considering my bikes were always standard bike without any upgrade. An important point here was raising elbows before the start, so riders at your sides knew beforehand you´re not lame and were prepared to fight the position. Mental games :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Man, I miss starts too much, 40 riders side by side fighting to enter first corner first was and indescribable feeling

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 12:29
If you read my post you´ll notice I perfectly know a petrol car with manual gearbox provide the fastest response between any ICE vehicle, but even so it is no as fast an an EV of similar power. Just engine inertia causes some lag, like it or not. Pistons, cranckshaft, cylindery head... all that is a lot of weight to spin up, while electric motors does not need to spin up that mass. It is not only the torque difference wich is always in favour of EVs, it is also the motor/engine weight and inertia difference
yes my family had an automatic 135i that was pretty quick and had Launch Control :o . These were the instructions:
1. With the engine running, step on the brake with your left foot.

2. Activate Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) - Press it once, don't hold it down. DTC light will appear on dash.

3. Activate Driving Dynamics Control - Press the Sport button.

4. With the vehicle stationary, activate manual (M) mode and select 1st gear

5. With your right foot, push the accelerator pedal past the resistance point. RPMs will automatically rise to launch control level and the launch control Flag icon will show in the instrument cluster.

6. Take your left foot off the brake and the car will launch, keep the accelerator floored.
cool eh? and it only takes a few seconds once you've had a bit of practice 8) And so much more rewarding than an ev where you just flex your right ankle to get the same effect :D

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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A good take on the problems of fast charging. Ignore the headline and read the article. Nothing most of us didn't already know, but interesting none the less...

https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/03/13 ... panasonic/

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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AJI wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 13:07
A good take on the problems of fast charging. Ignore the headline and read the article. Nothing most of us didn't already know, but interesting none the less...

https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/03/13 ... panasonic/
That´s true for any kind of battery, including mobile phones, laptops, handtools, etc. the fastest you charge a battery the less cycles it will charge. But people is so obsesed with recharging times it´s become the flagship of marketing campaigns for anything electric

But getting used to some routines it´s not necessary at all. For example I always charge my phone with the charger of my previous phone wich has an output of 0,7A. I only use its own charger (2A) when in a hurry, wich has been around 5 times in 2 years of use. My battery is still in perfect condition. My last phone battery with similar cares (usually charged at the pc at around 0,3-0,5A, as the battery was smaller) lasted the 4 years I used that phone in perfect condition too. For EV it should be the same, night charging at low rates is enough, no need to put dozens of kW to charge a car, just get used to connect it when you arrive home, even if the battery is not empty yet

Charging rates are one of the main factors, if not the most important, in any battery life. Other is battery use, I always try to keep it between 30 and 80% to improve battery life. Obviously when needed I fully charge it and use it to 0%, it will not explode nor crack or fail, but everytime you can avoid fully charging or fully discharging a lithium battery you´re increasing the number of cycles it will last. Or to be more precise, you´re not reducing it as you do when fast charging or using the whole capacity

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 13:05
Andres125sx wrote:
14 Mar 2020, 12:29
If you read my post you´ll notice I perfectly know a petrol car with manual gearbox provide the fastest response between any ICE vehicle, but even so it is no as fast an an EV of similar power. Just engine inertia causes some lag, like it or not. Pistons, cranckshaft, cylindery head... all that is a lot of weight to spin up, while electric motors does not need to spin up that mass. It is not only the torque difference wich is always in favour of EVs, it is also the motor/engine weight and inertia difference
yes my family had an automatic 135i that was pretty quick and had Launch Control :o . These were the instructions:
1. With the engine running, step on the brake with your left foot.

2. Activate Dynamic Traction Control (DTC) - Press it once, don't hold it down. DTC light will appear on dash.

3. Activate Driving Dynamics Control - Press the Sport button.

4. With the vehicle stationary, activate manual (M) mode and select 1st gear

5. With your right foot, push the accelerator pedal past the resistance point. RPMs will automatically rise to launch control level and the launch control Flag icon will show in the instrument cluster.

6. Take your left foot off the brake and the car will launch, keep the accelerator floored.
cool eh? and it only takes a few seconds once you've had a bit of practice 8) And so much more rewarding than an ev where you just flex your right ankle to get the same effect :D
"Pretty quick"?

Well, its all relative, check these Ruslander enthusiasts for whom an EV is not a practicable
option in their budget - or the vast distances across primitive tracts - so they rework an old
Mercedes-Benz by adding a massive turbo, & don't need any fancypants 'launch control', either...

"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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hollus
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Enough with who is fastest off the line, please?

A bit of focus on the subject, thank you. And remember that all users can always open a new thread...
Rivals, not enemies.

mmred
mmred
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Joined: 25 Apr 2017, 14:19

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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izzy wrote:
04 Feb 2020, 17:05
Off-topic alert! :oops: Or sketchy at best, but we're in limbo aren't we. This is how Greta got across the Atlantic when they moved the climate conference from Chile to Spain. With no fossil fuel! Or hardly any, Two awesome globe-sailing Aussies! It's a great channel generally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frZI857axRs
I t s waterworld

izzy
izzy
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Joined: 26 May 2019, 22:28

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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mmred wrote:
16 Mar 2020, 22:14
izzy wrote:
04 Feb 2020, 17:05
Off-topic alert! :oops: Or sketchy at best, but we're in limbo aren't we. This is how Greta got across the Atlantic when they moved the climate conference from Chile to Spain. With no fossil fuel! Or hardly any, Two awesome globe-sailing Aussies! It's a great channel generally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frZI857axRs
I t s waterworld
lol that's going back a bit. it's a beautiful set of videos, with Nikki Henderson as well, a fabulous example of positive people coming together and being positive. Anyway now we're here again i'll share this about how they're making EV's viable among pedestrians, putting noise in below 20kmh and this snippet:
Of course, people have perceptions of what electric cars should sound like, which prompted some companies to trial systems that met those expectations. For example, when developing the I-Pace, Jaguar tested a noise inspired by a science-fiction spacecraft. However, it abandoned that idea when pedestrians looked up at the skies rather than at the road when they heard it.
:D https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... revolution

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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That debate about artificial sound for EVs is completely absurd IMO. Any modern petrol car, when moving at those speeds (20kmh or below) makes virtually no noise at all. Modern petrol cars can´t be heared when at idle. When into the city with noise all around you can´t hear it even when moving much faster so, are they adding artificial sound to ICEs too?

People must get used to look around, with EVs but also with petrol cars, and now with electric bikes, electric skates... are we adding artificial sound to all of them? Great, then cities will become an even noiser surrounding with EVs because people can´t look around to avoid being run over #-o