FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[hollus]

IF this is what was going on...
... wouldn't the pressure pulses driving any flow increase move at the speed of sound?

Pre post edit

I was going to argue that at 2000 sampling points pr second the speed of sound would not allow for a quick enough increase and decrease of the actual flow given that the senor has a certain lenght, blah, blah, blah...

And then I checked, the speed of sound in gasline is well over 1000 m/s. So it is theoretically possible. Theoretically.

[dans79]

No its a cheat because the cousin of the sister of a friend said so to the courier that passed a letter to an old lady.

That is no different that saying it's not a cheat because a guy in a red shirt says it isn't.

[Mandrake]

so I'm not throwing "cheating" around but it was off limits i think, to a point where FIA didn't want to admit to it or that they weren't taking it too seriously, and beyond finding a loophole like DAS or double diffuser or something. It was naughty and secret

It's not a loop hole, using a system that does this would be a slam dunk cheating conviction as it violates this rule clearly.

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow
rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

The only way Ferrari could escape being penalized, would be if the FIA couldn't prove the system was actually used. This is shades of Benetton 94. The FIA announced that within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

If it's the fuel pump it is designed to pump fuel to the engine, it's not a device that has the purpose to mingle with the fuel flow. It's a bit like with the steering wheel....

[strad]

within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

Never understood that reasoning. Shouldn't have to prove the system was used. Just by virtue (odd word to use in talking F1) of it being available should be considered a breach of the rules. It has no business being on the car at all.

[dans79]

so I'm not throwing "cheating" around but it was off limits i think, to a point where FIA didn't want to admit to it or that they weren't taking it too seriously, and beyond finding a loophole like DAS or double diffuser or something. It was naughty and secret

It's not a loop hole, using a system that does this would be a slam dunk cheating conviction as it violates this rule clearly.

5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow
rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited.

The only way Ferrari could escape being penalized, would be if the FIA couldn't prove the system was actually used. This is shades of Benetton 94. The FIA announced that within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

If it's the fuel pump it is designed to pump fuel to the engine, it's not a device that has the purpose to mingle with the fuel flow. It's a bit like with the steering wheel....

I pretty strongly disagree with that.

If Ferrari was using an algorithm to process the fuel flow sensor output, and then using the output of the algorithm to adjust the pump, then that is for sure against the rule I posted earlier.

[dans79]

within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

Never understood that reasoning. Shouldn't have to prove the system was used. Just by virtue (odd word to use in talking F1) of it being available should be considered a breach of the rules. It has no business being on the car at all.

Teams can have legitimate reasons for having subroutines/algorithms/procedures that might be illegal is used during the race, for example testing.

If anything the FIA should be controlling/tracking/monitoring the software, and validating any changes to it, just like they do PU components.

[strad]

One could dream up all kinds of reasons to try to have it on the car but there should be no way to access it during qualifying or races.

[McG]

Is it okay to call it a cheat now?

Ferrari are being punished for it. A light punishment but still punished.

It was cheating. Let's not begin to pretend the FIA don't favour Ferrari. They have done for decades. Sad times again to be a "fan" of F1.

[izzy]

Is it okay to call it a cheat now?

Ferrari are being punished for it. A light punishment but still punished.

It was cheating. Let's not begin to pretend the FIA don't favour Ferrari. They have done for decades. Sad times again to be a "fan" of F1.

it used to be worse. The whole spygate saga was because FIA refused to do anything when Nigel Stepney was whistleblowing about the Ferrari bendy floor. Fernando was penalised for obstructing a Ferrari from 4 seconds in front!! A Ferrari rival had their suspension invention banned for being aero even while it wasn't in the airstream! Now at least they stopped it, so it's progress. And after the big fuss it'll probably be a bit better again next time

[Chene_Mostert]

within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

Never understood that reasoning. Shouldn't have to prove the system was used. Just by virtue (odd word to use in talking F1) of it being available should be considered a breach of the rules. It has no business being on the car at all.

Just by virtue of you owning a butchers knife, you should be considered psychopathic serial killer?

[Just_a_fan]

within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

Never understood that reasoning. Shouldn't have to prove the system was used. Just by virtue (odd word to use in talking F1) of it being available should be considered a breach of the rules. It has no business being on the car at all.

Just by virtue of you owning a butchers knife, you should be considered psychopathic serial killer?

A butcher's knife is used to cut up meat. He's allowed to cut up meat. Ergo, having the knife is legitimate.

Traction control software controls traction. Traction control was not allowed. The traction control software was illegal.

Simple difference.

[aran.vtec]

within Beneton's software where illegal systems, but it couldn't prove that the systems had been used, just that they existed and could be activated at any time.

Never understood that reasoning. Shouldn't have to prove the system was used. Just by virtue (odd word to use in talking F1) of it being available should be considered a breach of the rules. It has no business being on the car at all.

Just by virtue of you owning a butchers knife, you should be considered psychopathic serial killer?

I would look as this situation like some software company's fine company's , They don't fine them on the "5" PC's that were caught with the software on they would fine them on the potential use/abuse so all the PC's on site/department that could of used the software.

[bl4zar_]

My God, I did not lurk on this forum for a while and in the meanwhile it has become literal trash. This thread in particular is the pinnacle of people coming to conclusions with literally zero evidence and bending reality to their preferred way:

• Ferrari definitely cheated on the engine - like if, in the case there was even slight evidence on this other than suspects, teams wouldn't have assaulted the FIA
• the Spygate was Ferrari's fault - honestly WTF
• FIA being colluded with Ferrari from the beginnig of time - like if all the measures, fair and unfair ones, taken against Ferrari or at advantage of Ferrari's rivals magically disappeared, and only the ones in the opposite direction ever existed

One would expect facts and evidence or nothing on f1technical.net

[3jawchuck]

My God, I did not lurk on this forum for a while and in the meanwhile it has become literal trash. This thread in particular is the pinnacle of people coming to conclusions with literally zero evidence and bending reality to their preferred way:

• Ferrari definitely cheated on the engine - like if, in the case there was even slight evidence on this other than suspects, teams wouldn't have assaulted the FIA
• the Spygate was Ferrari's fault - honestly WTF
• FIA being colluded with Ferrari from the beginnig of time - like if all the measures, fair and unfair ones, taken against Ferrari or at advantage of Ferrari's rivals magically disappeared, and only the ones in the opposite direction ever existed

One would expect facts and evidence or nothing on f1technical.net

There's a reason this thread is not a voting thread. It's the designated cancer thread.

[SiLo]

I think we are all in agreement that the FIA likely could not prove that Ferrari actually cheated, only that they COULD cheat. They would have to be caught in the act or be provided evidence of the actual cheating happening for them to really come down hard.