Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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Steven
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Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 18:32
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Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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The 'tyre marble' thing is an interesting phenomenon that is currently slightly overlooked in the challenge for more overtaking. If the tyres could be constructed in such a way that marble wear would be reduced significantly, there are also a lot more opportunities to overtake another car. The drivers often find it difficult to find grip off the ideal line, simple because there are so many marbles on the track that makes it similar to 'driving on ice'.

I think that now the FIA has a single tyre supplier in F1 which it can influence, the manufacturer might need to take a closer look at how the tyres wear off, especially reducing the marbles thrown off during racing. I am currently not aware of any such initiatives, so this might be considered a proposal.

On the more technical side, is anyone aware of how we came to this marbling wear and how tyre compounds / cars should be changed to revert back to normal tyre wear?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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In times of tyre wars the marbeling problem has always cropped up. What is different now with the single supply versus the times when Goodyear had single tyres is the attempt to keep some interest in tyre issues by "creating a strategy task". The teams have the skills from the tyre war to find optimum race strategies with different tyres. But to create the situation in the first place Bridgestone has not gone to a "brick" tyre. They need something that grains in order to build up a challenge. If they were prepared to drop their PR gimmick tyres would be much harder and marbles would not be a problem in my view.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jersey Tom
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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All tires are going to wear and leave debris off the racing line. Softer tires seem to generate more marbles (the rubber almost rolls off the tread in sticky balls or strips), but even Nascar tires which are very hard leave wear debris or marbles off the line.

It would be tough to get rid of.
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CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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I have been watching the 1993 season as I am working from home this past week and I see that tyre stops are an exception rather than the rule.

Us oldskoolers wil recall that Goodyear had 4 compounds - A <> D

I recently watched the Spanish GP which they noted was a low degradation circuit and they expected few tyre stops. nowadays it is going to be a 2 stopper due to the poor wear rate!

The problem stems from the introduction of fuelling stops and the option to then swap tyres for no cost. Tyre compounds became softer overnight as they never had to complete a full distance.

In 2005, did we see less marbling? I think we did..
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Scuderia_Russ
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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You would be amazed at how much rubber we pick up around the wheel arches of the sports prototypes we run. After a three hour endurance race handfulls of rubber gets deposited all over the inside of the bodywork, and these are endurance spec F3 size Avons. I'll have to take a picture next time we are out.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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I have adressed this many times, and it is a very valid point but 1 I think can be very easily rectified.

Just as the teams are mandated to carry a standard aerodynamic pod in which to carry the on board camara, or the standard marshall's neutral button, a standard aerodynaic part should be affixed to every car that will blow the marbles further off line. Of course marbling occurs mostly in the hard braking zones(into which drivers want to pass) and this is when the cars are moving less air because of the decreasing speed, but I believe they can design a part that will still be effective in blowing some of the marbles further off the racing line.

rjsa
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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My not so educated guess is that the effect of grainning will be reduced with the absence of grooves. At least the effect of self inflicted grainning, which these days render tyres garbage after a couple of laps.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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The problem will not stop while they go back to one specification of tyres per race. In oder to crate an artificial challenge Bridgestone will keep the soft compound so soft that there will allways be graining and marbles.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jersey Tom
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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Graining and marbles don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Regardless of how many or what compounds Bridgestone brings, there will always be marbles. That's just how these tires wear. Marbles, dust, debris.. it's gotta go somewhere.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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Yeah Marbles are not only graining as Tom said.

Graining is due to several parameters going together like let's say..A high temperature compound, a cold track, abrasive surface, or a low temperature coumpounds, a hot track and less abrasive surface;
It is also dependant on temperature repartition etc..

And additionnaly marbles have a lot of other things like dust and laid down rubber.

So rather than a hard tyre we maybe should look at a tyre compounds working on a large temperature window and why increase the number of sets (and their composition) according to the track.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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You will find that they will rather reduce the available sets in order to reduce cost.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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I mixed marbles and graining, I stand corrected :wink:

Belatti
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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Some definitions I have found:
“The first of these is linear degradation: this is similar for both front and rear tyres, and dependent on their wear. In other words, if tyre performance is such that the car loses 0.1 second of lap time between the second and third laps, it will also lose 0.1 second between laps 22 and 23. During a race, the level of linear degradation can vary from nothing up to 0.15s depending on the circuit and the conditions. Linear degradation does not cause any change in the car balance, provoking neither understeer nor oversteer.

“The second type of degradation is graining. This is a phenomenon that has become much more prevalent since the introduction of grooved tyres, although even slicks can suffer from it. Graining occurs when the surface of the tyre grips sideways and rolls up due to the shear force on the rubber. It is very easy to spot as the rolled-up rubber remains on the tread. In most cases, graining is seen laterally on the front tyres although on some circuits, it can occur longitudinally on the rear tyres. This happens when there are a lot of traction events, such as in Canada. However it is much more common for it to be seen at the front at circuits such as Imola which are ’front-limited’ (where the front tyres are under greater stress than the rears). Tyres are prone to graining when temperatures are low and the rubber is perhaps stiffer than is ideal for the conditions. The result is an increase in understeer, but as the tyre wears, the graining disappears (the ’loose’ rubber is cleaned off the tread) and the tyre behaves normally. The performance curve created by graining is illustrated by the second line.

“The final type of degradation encountered is the type we will be more concerned with at Hockenheim. Blistering is so-called because the tyre does literally form heat blisters which are then ripped off the surface. This is commonly seen on the rear tyres, and is generally due to a combination of high acceleration and hard cornering forces through long, slow and medium speed corners With this type of degradation, the tyre behaves normally at the beginning, suffering only from linear degradation, until it gets to the point when the rear tyres blister, which can be quite sudden. The car then starts to lose lap time through oversteer and a loss of traction caused by the loss of rear grip.

“The propensity of the tyre to blister is very much a function of the core temperature of the tyre, in other words the temperature of the rubber below the surface. While the surface temperature of a tyre can build up quite quickly, particularly through the tyre sliding, the fact that rubber is a good insulator means the high surface temperatures do not penetrate quickly to the core. Core temperature increases occur more from the work the tyre does and these temperatures, even under arduous race tyre conditions, can take 8 to 10 laps to stabilise. A blistering tyre therefore will behave well until the core temperatures reach the critical point, and the tyre starts to lose its tread as the blisters occur. Blisters are generally of similar size, and ’bad’ blistering is therefore the consequence of a higher number of blisters on the tyre.

“Since the circuit revisions at Hockenheim, the demands the circuit places on the tyres have changed significantly. The new tarmac has significantly higher grip levels than the old surface, and the nature of the circuit is radically different: previously composed almost exclusively of heavy braking and traction events, it now includes a much higher number of medium speed corners. As such, the set-up compromise required has altered radically, and the circuit now requires much higher downforce levels. The result is much higher speeds through the stadium section (an average rise of 16%), and for the tyres, the numerous acceleration phases out of these corners have made Hockenheim a ’rear-limited’ circuit.

“Once these factors have been taken into account, our data analysed and the delicate choice of tyre compound and construction has been made, we then hope that the only unknowns left are the ambient factors. However, the weather is such that it can make a finely-balanced choice look like inspired genius, or over-ambitious miscalculation.”
http://www.f1china.com.cn/eng_version/n ... sp?id=7658

As far as I can see, marbles happen cause of graining:
Graining occurs when the surface of the tyre grips sideways and rolls up due to the shear force on the rubber. It is very easy to spot as the rolled-up rubber remains on the tread...
I have seen in go-karts that the rolled-up rubber remains on one side of tread, till it goes away in the form of marbles.

Imagine what would happen if you are spreading a lot of butter in a piece of bread. When the spreading knife reaches to the edge, some butter will be kept there, in the side of the bread, till there is enough to fell off.

If you ask me how to reduce this effect:
1. Wider and harder slicks
2. Track swepping between qualy and race
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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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graining is just that... small "grains" of rubber be rolled off the tire, kinda like rubbing your hand after the hair has been cinged and small pieces of hair coming off.

Marbles are much larger than "grains" from the tires, they happen when smaller chumks of the tire join together becuz of their hot & sticky nature. think of it like the same fire that cinged your hair actually got to your skin and it began to peel off, and those peels joined to gether and were rolled up into "marbles". If that fire got to your flesh you would have blistering and then would have what tire guys call "chunking"

"Grains" when you feel the tire feel like small grains of sand or graphite. they tend to make the tires slide and lower the grip. The usually occur when the very surface of the tire is heated too quickly.


No comments/ideas about my propsed standard aerodynamic device to use each race car to blow the "clag" further off the racing line to help improve passing?

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: Improve overtaking, reduce tyre marbles

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Seems like it would require an awful lot of crap on the car to make it effective.

Tire debris has been with racing for a long time. Was around plenty in the days of Villeneuve and Arnoux and all. Not sure why it would be the killer now.

I still think a lot comes down to having a compound and to lesser degree construction that's not "razor edge" on breakaway, and gives the driver the confidence in really pushing the vehicle.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.