Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[De Jokke]

Extra time for merc to sort out the reliability issues.
Disgusted by FIA's handling of the situation. Everyone saw this coming... They should have avoided this mess and what do they do: bring the circus together so that it can spread over the whole paddock. Idiots!
Even RBR were willing to race, unbelievable!! Afterwards being hypocrites by saying: yes it's the right decision. Bunch of egocentric idiots!

[De Jokke]

The person who rated my latest post negatively is clearly not aware of the danger of the virus. Open your eyes please!
Stay SAFE!

EDIT: thank you for understanding

[trinidefender]

Gemma Hatton, a previous tyre engineer for Pirelli and then Manor, who now works for racecar engineering magazine is on a podcast. She stated that talking to Andy Cowell revealed that starting in 2014, the first PU was at ~40% thermal efficiency. Now they are close to ~55% TE.

[63l8qrrfy6]

No way, 55% is bollocks.

[MtthsMlw]

Gemma Hatton, a previous tyre engineer for Pirelli and then Manor, who now works for racecar engineering magazine is on a podcast. She stated that talking to Andy Cowell revealed that starting in 2014, the first PU was at ~40% thermal efficiency. Now they are close to ~55% TE.

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

[Just_a_fan]

Power Unit is not the same as Internal Combustion Engine. The PU uses the Energy Store to "reuse" energy and thus increase overall efficiency.

[Dr. Acula]

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

You win about 5-8% efficiency by the hybrid components. The thermal efficiency of the ICE alone is probably somewhere between 45 and 50%, which is still impressive for such small engines. Generally bigger engines gain a bit of efficiency. For instance, bigger engines have a better ratio of cylinder volume to cyliner surface, so less heat ist lost to the surounding.

[subcritical71]

Gemma Hatton, a previous tyre engineer for Pirelli and then Manor, who now works for racecar engineering magazine is on a podcast. She stated that talking to Andy Cowell revealed that starting in 2014, the first PU was at ~40% thermal efficiency. Now they are close to ~55% TE.

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

GE’s H class gas turbine has >61% thermal efficiency https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower ... -oct15.pdf. Guinness has it at 63.08%

[gruntguru]

It is not valid to quote thermal efficiency for anything beyond "self sustaining" efficiency for the PU. "Self sustaining" efficiency is based on the steady state power available with no access to storage. Essentially you have the power produced by the piston engine plus the MGUH, divided by the equivalent power provided by the fuel flow.

If Mercedes TE has increased from 40% to 55%, the self sustaining power output would have increased from say 600 hp to 825 hp. (37.5% improvement)

I am quite sure they began (first race) with well over 40% TE and currently have over 50% so maybe a 20% improvement (but probably less). Cowell and MB (as a corporation) were claiming 50% three years ago.

[gruntguru]

Gemma Hatton, a previous tyre engineer for Pirelli and then Manor, who now works for racecar engineering magazine is on a podcast. She stated that talking to Andy Cowell revealed that starting in 2014, the first PU was at ~40% thermal efficiency. Now they are close to ~55% TE.

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

GE’s H class gas turbine has >61% thermal efficiency https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower ... -oct15.pdf. Guinness has it at 63.08%

That is a gas turbine plus a steam powerplant heated by the turbine exhaust. (Combined cycle)

The gas turbine alone would be about 43%.

[izzy]

No way, 55% is bollocks.

that's be a huge step wouldn't it, iirc they've only just crept past 50% last time they said anything. I wonder what it is? They've made gains on the electrical side with what they've learned doing FormulaE and they make their own motors, and also there should be some more thermal efficiency with running the coolant hotter. Add in some usual development on combustion, oil, fuel... perhaps he said "fifty-one five" or something?

perhaps if the Chinese buy F1 they'll give us the gps, then we could play around trying to work it out, eventually!

[subcritical71]

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

GE’s H class gas turbine has >61% thermal efficiency https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower ... -oct15.pdf. Guinness has it at 63.08%

That is a gas turbine plus a steam powerplant heated by the turbine exhaust. (Combined cycle)

The gas turbine alone would be about 43%.

Yes, completely agree much like you mentioned about the hybrid is the same, but with the gas turbine this is a steady state thermal efficiency. As long as you have fuel and can run at those optimum conditions you can run at that high efficiency (it’s not a reservoir of addition energy). The combined cycle is simply using the exhaust heat of the gas turbine to drive a steam turbine. The additional power to drive those additional loads are considered in the efficiency number. However, normally any performance data is corrected to ISO conditions so I would expect those efficiency numbers to be ISO corrected which is (probably) not what F1 manufacturers do(?)

[Just_a_fan]

That would the highest thermal efficiency of any internal combustion engine. Highest I could find is the MAN S80ME-C7 at 54,4%. Anyone heard of an even better one?

GE’s H class gas turbine has >61% thermal efficiency https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower ... -oct15.pdf. Guinness has it at 63.08%

That is a gas turbine plus a steam powerplant heated by the turbine exhaust. (Combined cycle)

The gas turbine alone would be about 43%.

The total energy obtained from burning the fuel is the important bit. That it uses two devices doesn't alter the fact that they make use of 60+% of the available thermal energy released from the fuel.

[OO7]

It is not valid to quote thermal efficiency for anything beyond "self sustaining" efficiency for the PU. "Self sustaining" efficiency is based on the steady state power available with no access to storage. Essentially you have the power produced by the piston engine plus the MGUH, divided by the equivalent power provided by the fuel flow.

If Mercedes TE has increased from 40% to 55%, the self sustaining power output would have increased from say 600 hp to 825 hp. (37.5% improvement)

I am quite sure they began (first race) with well over 40% TE and currently have over 50% so maybe a 20% improvement (but probably less). Cowell and MB (as a corporation) were claiming 50% three years ago.

I agree. I think they started at around 44-46% based on anecdotal comments and the expression of Rob White(?) during on the earlier press conferences in 2014. Also Mercedes' claims of achieving =>50% T.E were based on tightly controlled dyno conditions, at the time they hadn't managed to do so on the race track.

[Just_a_fan]

Also Mercedes' claims of achieving =>50% T.E were based on tightly controlled dyno conditions, at the time they hadn't managed to do so on the race track.

Did they ever claim otherwise? I mean the engineers, not the management/PR machine.