FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[Jolle]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

[JordanMugen]

I think thats always been the case, the teams have far greater resources than the governing body. I was impressed with Liberty when they appointed Ross Brawn - Poacher turned Game Keeper. Red Bull still smart over the Double Diffuser, robbing them of an other double championship!

Red Bull didn't have an outwash front wing either though. The only thing they had was a raked car, versus the Brawn sporting both the outwash front wing and double diffuser (neither of which were magic bullets, Toyota had both and didn't win anything).

[nzjrs]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

This was discussed at length in the other PU thread. My summary is that such a simple solution would be passively detectable and more likely easiest to find in scrutineering etc. It's also black and white no Grey about it illegal.

The fact the FIA didn't find the mechanism ferarri used to increase fuel flow seems to indicate to me that it was a dynamic exploit and not easily detectable under static conditions.

[strad]

Are you saying that they could have had a huge fuel line ala Smokey Yunick?? I would think the FIA would specify fuel line size.

[Jolle]

Are you saying that they could have had a huge fuel line ala Smokey Yunick?? I would think the FIA would specify fuel line size.

that's what I've understood. they can have 2000cc of fuel outside of the tank for 2019, it's limited to 250cc for 2020 (and 2021 for now) and spec parts for 2021(now 2022).

even a little bit of flex anywhere could give you a powerboost without direct rule breaking.

[Big Tea]

Could this not have been countered by re positioning the flow meter to closest component to the main 'rail'? I understand the want of fuel capacity outside the tank, but surely a flow meter 'last thing' would not affect anything as it is a free flow type?

[Jolle]

Could this not have been countered by re positioning the flow meter to closest component to the main 'rail'? I understand the want of fuel capacity outside the tank, but surely a flow meter 'last thing' would not affect anything as it is a free flow type?

It will, for 2020-2021. In 2014-2019, there was only one ffm and that was positioned within the fuel tank just after the low pressure pump.

So you had tank-low pressure fuel pump-fuel flow meter-2000cc of fuel-high pressure pump-injector.

With a slight variance combined with clever flexible bit (could even be some metal tube unwinding or bits of rubber inside the piping) you can get a higher fuel flow for a short while (in between corners) without going over the 100kg/s at the meter.

[PlatinumZealot]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

Explicitly banned.

[Jolle]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

Explicitly banned.

Of course it’s illegal. But also a play with the tolerances, between tank and engine there has to be a bit of flexible fuel line to prevent cracks.

[3jawchuck]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done
It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

Explicitly banned.

Of course it’s illegal. But also a play with the tolerances, between tank and engine there has to be a bit of flexible fuel line to prevent cracks.

The problem with this method is that it is out and out cheating, it is obvious and it is one of the first things that should be checked for.

In that event, the FIA would surly have just said what the cheat was and banged their gavel on the issue. There would be no need for cryptic, conspiracy generating press releases or talk of third parties ... unless the third parties are every single other team that thought to try this.

[Jolle]

Explicitly banned.

Of course it’s illegal. But also a play with the tolerances, between tank and engine there has to be a bit of flexible fuel line to prevent cracks.

The problem with this method is that it is out and out cheating, it is obvious and it is one of the first things that should be checked for.

In that event, the FIA would surly have just said what the cheat was and banged their gavel on the issue. There would be no need for cryptic, conspiracy generating press releases or talk of third parties ... unless the third parties are every single other team that thought to try this.

Could just be that they have a special setting hidden somewhere that puts the low pressure fuel pump from 5 bar to 20 bars. The whole system could be sollid up to 15 bar and expand a couple of cc’s at 20...

[PlatinumZealot]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

Explicitly banned.

Of course it’s illegal. But also a play with the tolerances, between tank and engine there has to be a bit of flexible fuel line to prevent cracks.

Yes it is a small volume. Approximately 14 cc's are needed to intermittently store and release fuel (my estimates). This could be hidden in the injectors. Hower easily discovered on inspection. And also can be discovered electronically by monitoring any triggers for storage and relase. Or spikes or drops in fuel pressure in storage and release.

[Jolle]

Explicitly banned.

Of course it’s illegal. But also a play with the tolerances, between tank and engine there has to be a bit of flexible fuel line to prevent cracks.

Yes it is a small volume. Approximately 14 cc's are needed to intermittently store and release fuel (my estimates). This could be hidden in the injectors. Hower easily discovered on inspection. And also can be discovered electronically by monitoring any triggers for storage and relase. Or spikes or drops in fuel pressure in storage and release.

If they would use the whole 2000cc, that’s an expansion of 0.7%. I think it’s quite normal that the pressure before the high pressure pump goes up when on anything else then max power and drops when the injections go full blast, that’s why they have two pumps...

[toraabe]

I just read a piece of writing from our member Scarbs on Motorsport.tech. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel- ... it-be-done

It states that in 2019 teams could store up to 2 liters of fuel outside the fueltank (and therefor after the fuel flow meter). Could it be so simple that they have a bit of flexible storage between the tank and the high pressure pump to inject a few extra grams when needed? A simple air filled rubber ball inside a small acumilate tank would do that.

just a circular tube tank inlet and outlet is the same at the bottom. The air in the top of the tank will let it compress. It probably has a rubber membrane in between like a expansion tank in a central heating system. ( It could be like that ) or it will work in a simialr way

[henry]

To get the sort of power increase that was being suggested they would need an additional 1.5g/sec, around 2cc. A 10 second burst would need 1% of the 2 litres. Very rough numbers.