Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[izzy]

most of the time doing the same speed as my Fiesta

Now I understand your hatred of SUVs.

Im getting a Q7 next and then your puny Range Roverlet will have to get out of my way

[Tommy Cookers]

since it's suggested that some have missed 'the point' - as below ....

With EV it doesn't need a huge amount of extra weight to have the performance, the Model3 Performance only adds 117kg for the second motor for example, and then it's a matter of how fast you can discharge the battery, which someone (forgotten who) is doing with supercapacitors in conjunction with lithium-ion, so EV is pretty perfect for this scenario of needing amazing acceleration instantly, once in a while, and normal economy the rest of the time

consequent on having a 'second motor' ....
there will be losses that will degrade the 'normal economy the rest of the time'
as with the ICEV there's no 'free lunch'

the Tesla 3 iirc having induction machines (making it go and regenerate-slow) it is spectacularly unsuited to towing
with an open loop system the 'controller' only works as certified if the EV characteristic matches that programmed

RETRO-EDIT - well they seem to have switched reluctance machines NOT INDUCTION MACHINES

[Just_a_fan]

most of the time doing the same speed as my Fiesta

Now I understand your hatred of SUVs.

Im getting a Q7 next and then your puny Range Roverlet will have to get out of my way

You probably want to check which Range Rover Sport you try to bully. Mine has a big chunky frame chassis underpinning the body. A bit like this one, in fact:


The front bumper is bolted, via some intermediary bits, to the ends of those chassis legs in the first photo. The rear bumper is the rear cross member in the second photo. You really don't want to rear end one. Your Q7 will crumple like a crisp packet...

The rear cross member is also the mounting point for the tow hook - which is one reason why they tow so well.

[izzy]

Now I understand your hatred of SUVs.

Im getting a Q7 next and then your puny Range Roverlet will have to get out of my way

You probably want to check which Range Rover Sport you try to bully. Mine has a big chunky frame chassis underpinning the body. A bit like this one, in fact:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1439/ ... e50aa7.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8uUAAOSw ... s-l400.jpg
The front bumper is bolted, via some intermediary bits, to the ends of those chassis legs in the first photo. The rear bumper is the rear cross member in the second photo. You really don't want to rear end one. Your Q7 will crumple like a crisp packet...

The rear cross member is also the mounting point for the tow hook - which is one reason why they tow so well.

oh wow, i surrender!!

[izzy]

since it's suggested that some have missed 'the point' - as below ....

With EV it doesn't need a huge amount of extra weight to have the performance, the Model3 Performance only adds 117kg for the second motor for example, and then it's a matter of how fast you can discharge the battery, which someone (forgotten who) is doing with supercapacitors in conjunction with lithium-ion, so EV is pretty perfect for this scenario of needing amazing acceleration instantly, once in a while, and normal economy the rest of the time

consequent on having a 'second motor' ....
there will be losses that will degrade the 'normal economy the rest of the time'
as with the ICEV there's no 'free lunch'

the Tesla 3 iirc having induction machines (making it go and regenerate-slow) it is spectacularly unsuited to towing
with an open loop system the 'controller' only works as certified if the EV characteristic matches that programmed

i haven't said anything about towing. I haven't said anything about a free lunch either, of course there are losses but if you check https://ev-database.uk/compare/electric ... g:number=9
the second motor doesn't cost much at all. The Standard one uses 240 wh/m and the Performance uses 260 which is still normal as i said. So you haven't really added anything to the discussion, just sayin, missed the point and done a strawman trying to claim status

[Just_a_fan]

I was thinking about the whole EV thing today whilst out in my vehicle for work. I can see the benefit of a pure EV in many urban environments, but for people in rural areas, or those that require range without time constraints, a devent hybrid seems a much better answer. Build it with decent electric-only range (thinking 40-50 miles for this) for the times when driven in town/city, a reasonable ICE for longer distance journeys. With a small, turbo-charged engine, you still get sufficient performance on the open road, especially if the electric motor is used to help at times. Regen braking gets you most of that boost back when you next slow. Small turbo-charged units can be very efficient too - much more so than large NA units, albeit at the cost of sound and some low down grunt. But the low down is helped by the electric motor so that's less of an issue.

Design the systems accordingly and you can even have a"get you home" option should either of the power sources fail.

EVs are brilliant in urban environments where local air quality is a big problem. Also, the instant response is brilliant in traffic. ICEs better for long distances. Couple the best of both systems to get the best vehicle for everyone. Job sorted.

[Big Tea]

I was thinking about the whole EV thing today whilst out in my vehicle for work. I can see the benefit of a pure EV in many urban environments, but for people in rural areas, or those that require range without time constraints, a devent hybrid seems a much better answer. Build it with decent electric-only range (thinking 40-50 miles for this) for the times when driven in town/city, a reasonable ICE for longer distance journeys. With a small, turbo-charged engine, you still get sufficient performance on the open road, especially if the electric motor is used to help at times. Regen braking gets you most of that boost back when you next slow. Small turbo-charged units can be very efficient too - much more so than large NA units, albeit at the cost of sound and some low down grunt. But the low down is helped by the electric motor so that's less of an issue.

Design the systems accordingly and you can even have a"get you home" option should either of the power sources fail.

EVs are brilliant in urban environments where local air quality is a big problem. Also, the instant response is brilliant in traffic. ICEs better for long distances. Couple the best of both systems to get the best vehicle for everyone. Job sorted.

The difference between a 100 mile round trip and a 200 mile round trip in most places in Europe anyway will mean having just an electric car or having a liquid furled car as well. Even though 99% of trips can be done in the one, there is a psychological need to have the 1% covered as the 1% is usually an emergancy

[hollus]

What is a plug-in hybrid missing for that 200 mile trip?

[izzy]

What is a plug-in hybrid missing for that 200 mile trip?

i think the issue with PHEV's is that the battery-only range is generally about 20 miles. Because of weight.

The best way to do it would probably be to have an electric drivetrain and a petrol turbine charger, but i think it'd need so much investment they've decided batteries will catch up before they could get it developed

BMW had the I3 with that concept, tho just a moped engine, and they dropped it to go all BEV

[Andres125sx]

Why would electric cars be bad at towing? Are we talking about lack of sheer ability to tow or about lack of battery capacity to do it for long enough, or about something else?

There's nothing specifically to stop them towing, of course, but range will be hammered (just as fuel economy is hammered in ICE vehicles when towing). There's also the weight - EVs are heavy to start with (compared to the equivalent ICE version)

Weight is not an issue, to tow some weight the vehicle need good torque, and electric motors torque is several steps above petrol and even diesel engines, so it theory, EVs are better suited to tow than ICEVs

and rely on regen braking (excellent idea) for much of their braking capability. This isn't so great when towing, however, as the extra mass (especially down an incline) can basically be too much for the system to handle. The traditional brakes that are fitted aren't designed for this extra work, hence no tow rating.

Same as ICEVs, they all use discs anycase right?, and I have never heard of an ICEVs whose brakes where designed for the vehicle weight plus towing weight

If they don´t provide tow rating there must be any other reason

I'm not sure any EV is rated to tow, other than the Tesla Model X, which can tow about 2.2t (more than enough for any tarmac caravan draggers, of course). That's an expensive option if you just want to tow a caravan to the coast for the weekend. It wouldn't legally tow our 2-horse trailer, however, which is plated at just over 2.5t and can get to that with two good size horses in it. My Range Rover Sport (rated to 3.5t), however, tows it like it's not there.

You´ll have an all electric option in the future, and I guess at a better price than model X as it´s a Ford F150. What about 1 million pounds towing capability

[Andres125sx]

the Tesla 3 iirc having induction machines (making it go and regenerate-slow) it is spectacularly unsuited to towing
with an open loop system the 'controller' only works as certified if the EV characteristic matches that programmed

May you elaborate this or provide some link? I don´t understand how vehicle weight will change regen. More weigh only add more inertia, for the regen system it should be the same as going down a slope, same force doesn´t stop the vehicle equally fast, but it will be regenerating anycase.

[Big Tea]

What is a plug-in hybrid missing for that 200 mile trip?

Nothing. It is the ideal, but is not an EV. I have little doubt that my next vehicle will be one.

[Andres125sx]

I was thinking about the whole EV thing today whilst out in my vehicle for work. I can see the benefit of a pure EV in many urban environments, but for people in rural areas, or those that require range without time constraints, a devent hybrid seems a much better answer. Build it with decent electric-only range (thinking 40-50 miles for this) for the times when driven in town/city, a reasonable ICE for longer distance journeys. With a small, turbo-charged engine, you still get sufficient performance on the open road, especially if the electric motor is used to help at times. Regen braking gets you most of that boost back when you next slow. Small turbo-charged units can be very efficient too - much more so than large NA units, albeit at the cost of sound and some low down grunt. But the low down is helped by the electric motor so that's less of an issue.

Design the systems accordingly and you can even have a"get you home" option should either of the power sources fail.

EVs are brilliant in urban environments where local air quality is a big problem. Also, the instant response is brilliant in traffic. ICEs better for long distances. Couple the best of both systems to get the best vehicle for everyone. Job sorted.

A friend of mine showed me his new car some weeks ago, and it was almost exactly that. Only that range in full electric is 54km, not miles. But 224hp so perfomance is guaranteed with its 1.6 petrol engine (180hp), and in full electric mode it can travel up to 135kmh / 85mph

I´ve been searching a picture wich shows how beauty it is, but couldn´t, it is way way more beauty and sporty in person, but it is expensive at around 50k€, I love it, but don´t think it´s worth tbh

[Just_a_fan]

Same as ICEVs, they all use discs anycase right?, and I have never heard of an ICEVs whose brakes where designed for the vehicle weight plus towing weight

If they don´t provide tow rating there must be any other reason

Towing capacity is determined by braking capacity. It's not determined by the motor's ability to pull the load. You can always use gearing to pull load but the brakes are the same no matter what. If the brakes can't slow you down an incline then you're going to crash. Real heavy towing vehicles use low range to help with going slowly down hill too. EVs don't generally have low range capability so they can't use that facility. Normal cars have low towing capacity because they also have normal brakes - but they are designed to work all the time - there is no regency braking.

[Just_a_fan]

the Tesla 3 iirc having induction machines (making it go and regenerate-slow) it is spectacularly unsuited to towing
with an open loop system the 'controller' only works as certified if the EV characteristic matches that programmed

May you elaborate this or provide some link? I don´t understand how vehicle weight will change regen. More weigh only add more inertia, for the regen system it should be the same as going down a slope, same force doesn´t stop the vehicle equally fast, but it will be regenerating anycase.

The system can only regency a given maximum rate. More weight plus an incline at speed might result in more energy than the system can handle.