[MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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yinlad wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 10:30
Tried a run with some rake overnight, rear wing was a bit happier but my floor is now at an all time low of df production.

I haven't changed my floor for around 10 runs and it's gone from -0.9 to -0.2 now, even though air speeds and flows all look the same every run. Even the CP plots look similar, large -0.5 blue zones, no lift areas, but somehow only -0.2 total, not even Cd/cl ratio, total cl!
But at least I have cooling working 😂😂😂
Where are the split lines for bodywork? If the sidepod geometry is changing on the top of the floor, the area integral can dramatically change. Do you have overlapping elements so a shared surface is being reported as another part?
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Joe7218
Joe7218
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Joined: 26 Aug 2019, 01:40

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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jjn9128 wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 11:16
yinlad wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 10:30
Tried a run with some rake overnight, rear wing was a bit happier but my floor is now at an all time low of df production.

I haven't changed my floor for around 10 runs and it's gone from -0.9 to -0.2 now, even though air speeds and flows all look the same every run. Even the CP plots look similar, large -0.5 blue zones, no lift areas, but somehow only -0.2 total, not even Cd/cl ratio, total cl!
But at least I have cooling working 😂😂😂
Where are the split lines for bodywork? If the sidepod geometry is changing on the top of the floor, the area integral can dramatically change. Do you have overlapping elements so a shared surface is being reported as another part?
Could you explain this a bit more please? I just changed my sidepods for my cooling and lost more than half my floor downforce(from cl=-1.1 to -0.5) without changing anything other than the sidepods.

Also an update on my rear wing, by changing the support's so they impact the flow less, i managed to gain an extra 0.1 of downforce :)

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Joe7218 wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 11:40
Could you explain this a bit more please? I just changed my sidepods for my cooling and lost more than half my floor downforce(from cl=-1.1 to -0.5) without changing anything other than the sidepods.

Also an update on my rear wing, by changing the support's so they impact the flow less, i managed to gain an extra 0.1 of downforce :)
You get downforce by having high pressure over a large area on top and a low pressure over a large area underneath. If you use a larger percentage of your top surface for side pod that's less area for high pressure = less downforce. This will only be from your "floor" part though. Your new side pod might be less draggy or make less lift so the overall result might be better even though you see less downforce from your floor part. Where you split the body can have knock on effects for how much downforce you see from each part. So long as you're self consistent it can be meaningful but if you change something dramatically you're not necessarily comparing like for like.

That said -1.1 to -0.5 seems a big jump, so I'd assume the bottom surface looks a bit different?
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Stlawrks
Stlawrks
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Joined: 27 Mar 2020, 14:00
Location: Sweden

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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I am really struggling on all fronts!

I am afraid that my car will be the Haas-car of the season :)
#stlawrks

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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So curiosity got the better of me and I ran a raked case, 0.5deg. Can't say anything in the result really surprised me, the front wing generated a tiny bit more downforce, the rear wing likewise was moved up out of some low Ptot flow so gained a bit, the diffuser lost loads of performance and the balance of the floor moved forwards (I think the front edge of the plank was separating so not clean downforce just a nasty low pressure bubble). Overall downforce was down a bit and likewise drag increased a bit, such that the L/D was worse than the flat car.

What did surprise me though was that the laptime was identical to the raked car, because of a more favourable COP with the rake. Even so for me fiddling rake feels like a bit of a dead end if peak downforce is the aim, better chasing balance with a flat car.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Joe7218
Joe7218
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Joined: 26 Aug 2019, 01:40

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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jjn9128 wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 13:01
Joe7218 wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 11:40
Could you explain this a bit more please? I just changed my sidepods for my cooling and lost more than half my floor downforce(from cl=-1.1 to -0.5) without changing anything other than the sidepods.

Also an update on my rear wing, by changing the support's so they impact the flow less, i managed to gain an extra 0.1 of downforce :)
You get downforce by having high pressure over a large area on top and a low pressure over a large area underneath. If you use a larger percentage of your top surface for side pod that's less area for high pressure = less downforce. This will only be from your "floor" part though. Your new side pod might be less draggy or make less lift so the overall result might be better even though you see less downforce from your floor part. Where you split the body can have knock on effects for how much downforce you see from each part. So long as you're self consistent it can be meaningful but if you change something dramatically you're not necessarily comparing like for like.

That said -1.1 to -0.5 seems a big jump, so I'd assume the bottom surface looks a bit different?
Ah thanks! That all makes sense. The sidepods are similar size so not sure if that's what's causing it. I have heaps of excess cooling now though so I can slim down the sidepods a bit and my new sidepods have about half the lift and similar drag to the old sidepods so it is definitely an improvement.

etsmc
etsmc
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Joined: 04 Apr 2012, 13:20

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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regarding the num_cfd_results_mvrc file, has anyone got a process for comparing runs like grabbing the data from this file and throwing it into a spreadsheet? tried importing in to excel but there is no easy way as the file is not delimited in any way..

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LVDH
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Joined: 31 Mar 2015, 14:23

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Joe7218 wrote:
29 Apr 2020, 15:30
yinlad wrote:
29 Apr 2020, 09:35
I'm so very confused at the moment. I also can't get the rear of the car to make any downforce. My floor has also halved how much downforce it's making, even though the flow through and out of it looks the same as some earlier runs I did where it was producing around -1.00.

Cooling also gets worse over 2500 iterations compared to 1500, though I still don't get the correct streamlines for cooling. Has always been a problem for me for some reason.

Basically everything is going wrong and nothing I do seems to fix it!
The cooling streamlines don't seem to work for me either I don't think (set 5 of the streamlines is just blank, nothing shows up)

My rear wing makes about -0.7 right now, however I noticed my wing supports caused the flow to detach In the middle quarter of my wing or so. I've changed the supports but am yet to run a sim of it, will update once I do
This post worries me. I often post the following link and will do once more. Not paying attention to this killed Variante's championship last year:
https://mantiumchallenge.com/porous-media-openfoam/
Every node in the stl is the seed for a streamline. This is a bit unfortunate as it causes a bit too many streamlines on a good measurement surface. But only getting a handful of streamlines tells me that your surface is a bit too rough.


Today I will be exclusively be working on MFlow and MVRC to address some of the issues.
I have done some investigations on the cars this year to see why you generate so low downforce numbers. This is in part because of ride height and rake limitations together with the somewhat short car, we are running. I was close to fix the ride height and rake issue but then decided to just start the season for obvious reasons. Allowing more flexible rake, would need an automatic transformation of the rear suspension. But like, I said, I have been working on this and it will be available soon. It will probably have to wait for the new rule book though.



etsmc wrote:
01 May 2020, 09:31
regarding the num_cfd_results_mvrc file, has anyone got a process for comparing runs like grabbing the data from this file and throwing it into a spreadsheet? tried importing in to excel but there is no easy way as the file is not delimited in any way..
Having a useful separator in the numeric results is a good idea. I will try to get that done today. But I could just as well post some Python code on how to extract the numbers out of what we have right now into a Pandas dataframe, in case you or someone else is interested.

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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LVDH wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:12
Having a useful separator in the numeric results is a good idea. I will try to get that done today. But I could just as well post some Python code on how to extract the numbers out of what we have right now into a Pandas dataframe, in case you or someone else is interested.
Would it not be easier to put the Cl Cd L/D...etc as a header so then all the columns are comma or tab delimited?
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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Salamander
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Joined: 16 Mar 2020, 12:32

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Stlawrks wrote:
30 Apr 2020, 19:16
I am really struggling on all fronts!

I am afraid that my car will be the Haas-car of the season :)
I have not even finished constructing my car, let alone simulating and developing.
It's going to be a tough job finishing it this weekend.
So don't worry to much.
Keep up the good work mate.

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Koldskaal
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Joined: 14 May 2019, 10:02
Location: Denmark

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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etsmc wrote:
01 May 2020, 09:31
regarding the num_cfd_results_mvrc file, has anyone got a process for comparing runs like grabbing the data from this file and throwing it into a spreadsheet? tried importing in to excel but there is no easy way as the file is not delimited in any way..
I wrote a matlab script that did that last year. I used it until it got stuck in a loop and ruined the entire (not backed up) spreadsheet :? . My script extracted the strings inbetween ": " and ", " and would then look for names like "bargeboard" to find the appropriate cell to paste the data into. Another reason I don't use it anymore is, I tend to divide the parts as they get more detailed. So it becomes quite a hassle to keep track all the different parts, and it makes comparisons meaningless over time. But that may be stupid of me to begin with :D .

I have settled on copy/pasting into this format:
Image

It is pretty quick to insert all the values and it gives a nice overview. In general whenever I --- up something it will be pretty evident from one of those parts. What do you guys use?
MVRC - Koldskaal, name: Christian

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Koldskaal wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:56
It is pretty quick to insert all the values and it gives a nice overview. In general whenever I --- up something it will be pretty evident from one of those parts. What do you guys use?
It's too big to share a screenshot of :lol: I like to see trends over every iteration so it's a big spreadsheet with main results on sheet1, breakdown of parts on sheet2, deltas between parts on sheet3, and a big table with component IDs and what's changing with each case. i.e. baseline parts are v01a, a small incidence change or something would be v01b, a big geometry change is v02a. There are 2 "notes" boxes on sheet1 of what I want to see change in the case and a small report of what did change and what to look into moving on, kinda like your "problem" and "change" boxes.

These are the graphs I use
Image
Image
Image
Image
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

etsmc
etsmc
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Joined: 04 Apr 2012, 13:20

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Wow this scares me.. you guys are following your changes in great detail and this is amazing!!!
This was something i wanted to aim for this season (better tracking of changes). I like the idea of a sheet for tracking overall results and one for detailed results.

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yinlad
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Joined: 08 Nov 2019, 20:10

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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LVDH wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:12
Joe7218 wrote:
29 Apr 2020, 15:30
yinlad wrote:
29 Apr 2020, 09:35
I'm so very confused at the moment. I also can't get the rear of the car to make any downforce. My floor has also halved how much downforce it's making, even though the flow through and out of it looks the same as some earlier runs I did where it was producing around -1.00.

Cooling also gets worse over 2500 iterations compared to 1500, though I still don't get the correct streamlines for cooling. Has always been a problem for me for some reason.

Basically everything is going wrong and nothing I do seems to fix it!
The cooling streamlines don't seem to work for me either I don't think (set 5 of the streamlines is just blank, nothing shows up)

My rear wing makes about -0.7 right now, however I noticed my wing supports caused the flow to detach In the middle quarter of my wing or so. I've changed the supports but am yet to run a sim of it, will update once I do
This post worries me. I often post the following link and will do once more. Not paying attention to this killed Variante's championship last year:
https://mantiumchallenge.com/porous-media-openfoam/
Every node in the stl is the seed for a streamline. This is a bit unfortunate as it causes a bit too many streamlines on a good measurement surface. But only getting a handful of streamlines tells me that your surface is a bit too rough.


Today I will be exclusively be working on MFlow and MVRC to address some of the issues.
I have done some investigations on the cars this year to see why you generate so low downforce numbers. This is in part because of ride height and rake limitations together with the somewhat short car, we are running. I was close to fix the ride height and rake issue but then decided to just start the season for obvious reasons. Allowing more flexible rake, would need an automatic transformation of the rear suspension. But like, I said, I have been working on this and it will be available soon. It will probably have to wait for the new rule book though.



etsmc wrote:
01 May 2020, 09:31
regarding the num_cfd_results_mvrc file, has anyone got a process for comparing runs like grabbing the data from this file and throwing it into a spreadsheet? tried importing in to excel but there is no easy way as the file is not delimited in any way..
Having a useful separator in the numeric results is a good idea. I will try to get that done today. But I could just as well post some Python code on how to extract the numbers out of what we have right now into a Pandas dataframe, in case you or someone else is interested.
I had the same issue in the race I ran last season too, but in the official results all streamlines were generated as expected, so I don't think it's the surface that is the issue

(though looking at the article and checking my STL, it may be an issue... but that doesn't explain why the official results came back ok last season)
MVRC - Panthera

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2020 (Grand Prix Cars)

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etsmc wrote:
01 May 2020, 13:44
Wow this scares me.. you guys are following your changes in great detail and this is amazing!!!
This was something i wanted to aim for this season (better tracking of changes). I like the idea of a sheet for tracking overall results and one for detailed results.
Or that we're taking it too seriously :lol:


yinlad wrote:
01 May 2020, 14:27
I had the same issue in the race I ran last season too, but in the official results all streamlines were generated as expected, so I don't think it's the surface that is the issue

(though looking at the article and checking my STL, it may be an issue... but that doesn't explain why the official results came back ok last season)
Andre splits the mesh on the radiator monitor prior to running the official result - so that it's consistent across all teams.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica